Hey all. I’d like to open an official discussion regarding the upturning of the prior Hexbear party line on an :israel-cool: emote proper with the unambiguous Zionist flag.
I want to preface this by saying this is not in a ‘ceding the issue’ way. Over the past year I’ve been trying to engage in self-crit w/rt the chauvinism I’ve internalized growing up in a Liberal Zionist household, and my personal viewpoint on it did a 180 some months back, so I want to reopen this discussion proper in my personal capacities as Self-Appointed Emote Czar.
The reason it’s taken long enough beyond that is prior to July, I was essentially half-engaged with the site in order to finish out my degree. After that, it’s been mostly inertia of confirming with the admins and other /c/Judaism mods, as well as having to be rigorous about my job search personally giving me little free time to coordinate this.
I do not want to center myself in this conversation more than I inadvertently already have, so I will leave my own opinion on the issue as a comment rather than explaining further here.
The consensus we’ve roughly come to is to open up the discussion in an official manner for a day or so. After that, I’ll weigh the discussion in an entirely vibes-based manner (sorry Dean Norris enjoyers) and we’ll alter Hexbear party line on it accordingly.
This is all my personal view on this as of late and does not represent mod consensus.
I think there comes a point where a symbol loses any sacrosanct nature and that is long past when it is razed into the ground and branded on the skin of the indigenous by an ethnonationalist enclave that claims it as their primary means of representation.
The thing about symbols is they’re ultimately contextual, we differentiate the Buddhist swastika and the Nazi swastika, I think we have the capacity to meaningfully differentiate the Zionist Star of David and the Jewish Star of David (color [blue vs. I’ve seen a lot of gold/yellow] for one). I think it’s ultimately pedantic to dig in heels on it and I don’t want to be exceptionalist with how I treat religious symbols on flags.
My current personal stance on religious symbolism in national flags is that national flags ultimately represent nations and not religions, and we have to contend with nations as they exist, even if they latch onto theology to make their representation seem sacrosanct.
My personal stance is that I think the best way to handle this if the change is made is to hotswap
for the flag proper.I’m sorry for being a blockage on this prior. Regret digging in my heels
You’re good imo, I don’t think you have anything to apologize for on this one because there’s serious intergenerational trauma involved and that doesn’t just go away overnight.
User hello hello made a hilarious version that has the resistance red arrow over the star, sort of a graffiti aesthetic: https://hexbear.net/post/5886556
But someone else pointed out that adopting anything other than the Zionist entity’s national flag is a tacit concession to the fascist conflation of Judaism with Zionism, and I think that’s correct. If Israeli Zionists really want their genocidal project to be recognized as a political entity then it should at least be open to all the same acts of condemnation that any other oppressive nation-state is exposed to.
Otherwise yeah, it’s Jewish supremacy/exceptionalism, and if anti-Zionist Jewish people such as yourself and Norm Finkelstein openly recognize it as such, then what’s stopping us? I think we’re discerning enough to recognize when burning something with the star of David on it is an act of anti-Jewish hatred versus a condemnation of the settler-colonial project that claims to speak for all Jewish people.
The most reasonable argument I can see for not changing this position is that there could be legal repercussions on the site depending on how things go in legislation, but that’s a distant hypothetical, and why would there suddenly be repercussions now? I think it’s more important to make the site less hostile to Palestinian and other Arab users anyway. Since people do use this site for mutual aid, I think we can’t hide behind the excuse that it’s a non-serious shitposting site forever, and besides, I want it to be less of a white western echo chamber anyway, but I digress. I’m in favor of changing the emoji to the actual flag of the hateful, antisemitic Zionist entity.
And as to the potential for legal repercussions, didn’t some German instance get clowned to shit by our users for using that as an excuse to protect zionism?
You’re right, they did catch a bunch of derision for it and rightfully so, it’s a liberal move and if hexbear is to be anything other than a bunch of liberals I think this is a fantastic growth opportunity
I might be conflating them with the transphobia incident on the UK feddit, but I thought that the additional wrinkle there was that the potential legal repercussions were also way overblown if they existed at all, which it seemed like they didn’t.
If this was a situation where we knew or it was highly likely the site would actually get promptly shut down for this, rather than speculation we might be targeted in the future maybe, you could make arguments about what the course of action should be (and it still shouldn’t be “just fold and self-censor”), but the actual circumstances rn just don’t necessitate even having that conversation.
I’m gonna go ahead and +2 you on this one
I think there were only 2 arguments that I ended up feeling were worthwhile against burning the Israeli flag;
- We get to avoid some accusations of anti-Semitism (though I find this one pretty weak and lacking in any strategic or long term thinking, and doesn’t hold up against the counter arguments)
- It was important to you personally and you’re a super contributor that’s important, and so it would be throwing you aside to go on with it.
I’m glad we can be past 2 now, and I commend you for being so open about it. I hope you can find some other symbols, too, which represent your religious and cultural positions, aside from the Star of David. That because I unfortunately think it is on am irreversible trajectory towards losing all connection for all non-genocidal people. I’m not saying that’s good, but it’s how this will likely shift in the future, and I hope you have peace in that shit storm that you, an anti-zionist, didn’t want or need
I think your version of argument 1 isn’t quite right. The point was that if a wrecker came here and wanted to stir something, using that emoji would be very effective. We used to get a lot more wreckers when the site was new, so it was a very valid concern.
Well yes, that’s one of the accusations of anti-Semitism we would avoid. And that’s definitely the strongest of the arguments within that set, for sure! I still find it weak as opposed to just banning those takes and having principled anti-zionism usage only or something.
I agree with you, there is a difference between a flag with a symbol on it (representing a nation) and that symbol alone.
I hope you aren’t beating yourself up about it, it’s really nbd.
This seems reasonable to me and I’m glad you’re willing to reflect on and change your views. Congratulations on finishing your degree, too — I assume you did finish it, right?
I think somebody once sent me the podcast Proles of the Minyan, whose first episode advocates for ending usage of the Star of David as a symbol of Jewishness altogether — and I found this a very striking idea which was of course a bit depressing in context, that at least some Jews feel the need to go a step beyond just changing the color or stroke thickness or what-have-you of the Star of David, in favor of using an entirely different symbol.
Incidentally, my own style generally refers to the Nazi symbol as a Hakenkreuz, as a way to further distinguish it from the Dharmic swastika — my impression is that this is a fairly common practice in India and not so much elsewhere.
As for the burning flag emoji itself, I don’t really have particularly strong feelings one way or the other. I guess if I were to say anything, it’s that the emoji as it stands really conveys extra symbolism to me by altering the design: the use of the Stern Gang’s Schwurhand to me highlights how the Zionist Entity was founded on settler violence and sustains itself through settler violence, and, at that, the Schwurhand emblem itself is as far as I understand culturally rooted in Central European heraldry. However, insofar as other people do not interpret the alteration of the flag in the same way as I do, and rather take the alteration of the flag as representing a form of Jewish exceptionalism by refusing to see the star burned — then I would not oppose changing the flag to its “proper” design.
I did finish my degree
Congrats!!!
I know you don’t need to hear this, but know that I’m really proud of you for making this post. And I’m going to echo the others and say I don’t think you’ve got anything to apologize for. We’ve had to tight-walk on a razor’s edge on this issue to keep from siding with nazis.
I’m sorry for being a blockage on this prior.
For what it’s worth, I personally forgave you over this a while ago after I got banned in the initial struggle session on this like 5 years ago. I also didn’t realize I was arguing with a teenager at the time lol. Good post, thank you for the work you have put in over the years on this site. I am glad you have stuck around and grown.
EDIT: I also just want to say something that I said to you 5 years ago: Israel and zionists don’t get to define Judaism or who you are as a Jewish person because they cynically slap a Star of David on a flag to hide their actions behind. ✡️ and 🇮🇱 aren’t the same thing and there are plenty of good things about Judaism that are perverted by a bunch of assholes hiding their despicable actions behind a religion.
This is a good personal take. Congrats on learning and growing!
FWIIIIHuh! Hooh! Huh! Hooh! Huh! Hooh!i would like the anti-semitic mods to be removed from the site and the emoji added. as a jewish person it’s very distressing to see hexbear allows their admins to cater to zionists by associating all jews with israel. it’s honestly sickening. probably won’t be on the site for a while. fucksake.
i’ve held back from ever voicing my opinion because of the rabidness of the zionist antisemites. sincerely. i dont want to deal with internet drama but some admins are rabid about defending zionists over a few fucking pixels. makes me sick.
it’s not my flag and it’s NOT my symbol.
death to the idf. death to israel
free palestine
edit: just wanted to edit saying i got not issue with ysf i hope it wasn’t interpreted that way. also i guess this i was a colder take than i expected which was pleasant to see thank you everyone for being correct
1: Add the emoji. Having the exemption for the zionist rag is accepting the zionist point that they represent Judaism and Jews as a whole. This is antisemitic.
2: Ban professorowl_PhD. Calling people holocaust supporters for saying the flag should be burned is an identical position to zionists like the judge who recently banned it in
. If someone were to lock the doors or a zionist barracks and burn it down, would that be bad because it’s like the Holocaust, or should it be celebrated as an act of resistance?deleted by creator
Holy shit we gotta do a purge of the Zionists on here
On behalf of the news mega, fuck the mods.
All of the interesting posters with challenging takes have been banned by shit mods that get away with deplorable behavior.
Constant betrayal of comrades over inane shit like “maybe we should protect the genocide flag” on a site where everyone clearly distinguishes between settler colonialism and religion.
The only people that muddy the waters are the people saying “oh maybe I should defend the genociders as potential self-preservation” - i’m sorry but who’s side are you on??
I think using anything other than the real flag of Israel has always been a tacit endorsement of zionism’s special status. The flag of Israel is not the Star of David.
Always believed the ‘no burning pissrael’s flag’ rule was just a vestige of this site’s residual rad liberalism, I ignored it and didn’t make a fuss because I suspected the site would get over it in due time as the true extent of zionism’s fascism became obvious even to the most dense cracker
I was patient because frankly most of you haven’t been on the fuck zionism train as long as I have, the tears you’re shedding I shed in 2008, and most of you would’ve downvoted my ass during r/arab’s site wide offensive against reddit Zionism in 2016
You’re not burning the Star of David, you’re burning the flag of a genocidal nazi state, the star was already desecrated by being printed on the white and blue, to conflate the two IS ACCEPTANCE of the zionist argument that they embody all aspects of Judaism, that is an antisemitic and fascistic lie no different from taking Nazi German occultism and blood myths seriously
we need an israeli flag burning emoji, and z_poster should be unbanned because they were entirely correct
Yeah, I have no idea what z_poster was up to before that post, but it seemed like mods already didn’t like them and treated them unfairly on this topic as a result
ZPoster is legitimately an asshole sometimes, but is also often correct in ZPoster’s own way. I find myself defending ZPosters takes too often, not out of agreement, but because I feel like nobody ever understands the arguments ZP is trying to make. But yes, it seems mods were just pissy about other stuff and banned ZP for that more than for this. I’d just like the mods to confront that and either say it’s because of bad behavior and ban evasion and replace this specific ban for supporting burning this flag, or do some CRIT about actually banning for arguing for this burning flag emoji.
The emoji doesn’t really matter, but the inherent zionist ideology hiding behind it that was accepted is
But I would also accept evidence that some of the ban evasion accounts that did some real bad actual anti-Semitism were actually ZP. I’ve seen some links that just seemed like possibly a different person to me, and those were referenced as “clear ZP alts”
I dont think that hexbear collects identifying data about its users. So yes I wonder how admins/mods figured that those accounts were zposters alts. One admin said that certain user was zposters alt because both talked about same stuff so i guess thats a clear cut case bring on the guillotine
Wel I know personally of at least 2 that were legit ZPoster, used for site evasion, because ZP admitted it lol
Maybe I’m not into online forum admin enough, but I just don’t see the big problem if the original ban was unfounded anyways. For this topic, I think it was justified to make a new account and plead the case further. I can imagine it’s sometime bad though, but I think we should just take seriously each argument/position/racist take for what it is and treat it as a new individual account. That holds the risk of someone making harmful statements and getting caught too slowly, but that’s not what ZP does. ZP isn’t going around throwing slurs at people and avoiding the ban to do so (as far as I know. Correct me if I’m wrong and I’ll correct that)
Just seems like 2 very different kinds of bans between being grating and throwing slurs around. For one van evasion is acceptable and the other it’s not.
I’ve seen, in the last several hours alone, zposter openly arguing with an admin, outing the alt as zposter, while arguing to another poster referring to zposter in the third person as if the alt wasn’t zposter, defending zposter. To me, that reads as odd behavior, especially if you have a serious grievance to address. Is the situation so dire that one needs to astroturf on their own behalf?
Okay but… now that we’ve laid it out in the open with a referendum from YSF, it seems like the supermajority opinion of the site actually agrees with Z’s position on this one. It seems most people agree that radical Anti-Zionism is the correct position here. Shouldn’t that be taken into account?
EDIT: Sometimes it takes one particularly loud and persistent person to agitate until they get clobbered for the majority to speak up to change the state of things. Shouldn’t there be reconciliation when that happens?
I don’t care what Zs position is on the flag. I’m a fucking cracker in the imperial core, my take is moot and I’ll listen comrades in closer proximity to the Zionist entity’s opinion on the matter. Burning that flag isn’t for me, so its shouldn’t matter what I think about it.
However, the grievance I’m talking about is the accusations of death threats targeting zposter. I won’t fault anyone for wanting that air cleared, but it isnt a good look to also be actively pretending to be unaffiliated people trying to weave sympathy into threads for your original account at the same time. Why behave that way if youre just going to cave right away when talking directly to an admin? Be up front about your alt(s), demand to have that grievance resolved. Otherwise you just look like a wrecker doing wrecker shit. The behavior hasn’t convinced me they’re not doing wrecker shit, even if my views align on the flag issue.
What else are they supposed to do? There’s no user union and the rules say if you get banned, then create another account, so banning them for “ban evasion alts” actually doesn’t make sense. And if they get death threats / death wishes from one aggressive user who likes to verbally abuse people in arguments, then I can’t fault them for wanting to come back and argue for themselves, especially when other people wouldn’t want to wade into that personal shitstorm to defend them for fear of catching that verbal abuse or bans.
Also, burning that flag is for you because it’s for humanity, and besides, a lot of our future actually pivots around Palestine, it’s not just a regional issue.
If the reason for hesitation is that they went about bringing the issue of mod abuse in the wrong way, I disagree with your hesitation. Half the reason I’m even in this thread as much as I am is because Zposter (or some other banned Arab user) messaged me from an alt this morning pretending they weren’t Z. That was disingenuous, but it also was a fairly effective way to get my attention, and when I uncovered the old incident with Nakoichi I figured their behavior made sense.
I mean, look at it this way: if you had a mod tell you to die, then other mods covered it up or gaslit you into thinking it didn’t happen, what tools do you have available to make this issue known? You’d probably do some irrational things.
Regardless, I still am skeptical that they should be unbanned. They may have done or said a lot of heinous things. That ought to be cleared up first IMO.
and the mods should have to post a self-crit, inexcusable conduct
I think the mod who banned them, who also has a history of threatening z_poster and other users as well as having their own comments removed by moderators for breaking the rules, should have their mod privileges revoked. I don’t think they should be banned, but they’ve proven they’re not moderating in good faith.
Since there is near universal approval of having a true Zionist entity flag burning emote, this thread is now about whether ZPoster should be banned or not.
I vote for them being unbanned because they already have a million alts ready on standby anyways, and they’re not going anywhere until Nakoichi is gone.
It’s funny how the rest of Hexbear always comes around to their point of view eventually even when most people see them as a crank. It happened with the SMO and it’s happening with emote.
Will one of the people who kept claiming that an emoji depicting the burning of an israeli flag is tantamount to calling for or endorsing the holocaust please provide some sort of substantiation outside your own brains that this is a legitimate opinion to hold, which is not rank zionist propaganda? Does anybody, zionist or otherwise, hold this opinion outside this website?
I looked and here is what I found:
- 1 account of a palestinian group burning wooden star of david + swastika in protest of violent and deadly settler incursions
- 1 account of some jews in the US possibly burning a star of david
- 1 account of egyptian journalists burning the israeli flag, photo of benjamin netanyahu and photo of sameh shoukry
I also specifically searched the ADL website, as they have a very “broad” meaning of the concepts. (The last item was there, although just a brief news item without any commentary.) I searched their hate symbols database which has a terrible web interface so I also checked the PDF Book version of the database.
I tried to find any references to nazis burning israel flags.
I tried to find information about stars of david being burned in the holocaust like the KKK burning crosses.
Nada
I neeeeed to point out about the original post: you cant burn this flag.. original source of the screenshot from what I found. This appears to be wild mis reporting. No other media source Iooked at (The Forward, World Israel News, Baltimore Jewish Times, MSN) reported anything to do with burning.
They were all in line with the actual ruling (SUMRALL v. ALI_12025mc00110_Aug 4, 2025) which was about adding the hate crime multiplier onto an existing charge (in this case battery):
Purposefully yanking on an Israeli flag tied around a Jewish person’s neck to choke them is direct evidence of racial discrimination. The Star of David — emblazoned upon the Israeli flag — symbolizes the Jewish race
Although I did also find a different case which maybe confused things: Hayward man who burned Israeli flag is sentenced for hate crime. This guy did burn an Israeli flag. But the charge was due to having first stolen it. So he also got a hate crime enhancement on theft.
Not that we should be taking moral cues from people as depraved as american judges but what I am saying is that THIS SITE GOES FURTHER than even they appear to be advocating.
pings with receipts all from the original thread:
- @Nakoichi@hexbear.net: link 1, link 2, link 3, link 4, link 5
- Also if you have the time, please also explain how you are ok with IRL israeli flag burning but emojies go too far link 12; please relate it to you many other posts on that thread that emojis are irrelevant, waste of time, getting mad at people for posting about emojis etc.
- @Lyudmila@hexbear.net
[]: link 6, link 7 - @ProfessorOwl_PhD@hexbear.net: link 8, link 9, link 10, link 11
- @GalaxyBrain@hexbear.net: didn’t actually make any direct contributions but earned inclusion through quantity of cheerleading
Unban zposter. Purge the zionists. Scour them from this website. Burn the genocide flag.
burn the fucking flag
Anyone who has a problem with a burning Israeli flag at this point does not deserve to be on hexbear anymore.
We will be adding the isntreal cool emoji.
We are discussing the mod actions taken against z poster.
We are discussing taking mod actions against some of the users making reactionary statements regarding the addition of the emoji.
We express our strongest and most heartfelt apologies to all the users but especially our Arab and Muslim users for this. We should have added the emoji months ago.
We will have an open floor meta post to try and work through the tension but I want to humbly ask everyone to please try and speak to each other in good faith while taking a charitable interpretation of other users.
As discussed in the ND meta post we should try to be patient with each other with regard to written communication.
This is a justifiably so very important and emotionally elevated topic and we truly want to do right by the users as well as the volunteers of the site.
Please keep the discussion to specific mod actions rather than general/vague meta comments.
There are those on the mod team that appretiate zposter and those that dislike his hostility and tendency to take the least charitable interpretation. You can see his moderation history on the origonal zposter account as well as the current one to see he has had actions taken not related to his stance on the emoji.
In closing the only finalized thing is adding the emoji, I would like us to try and discuss the other topics without getting too hostile at each other please
100 years from now, if humans still exist, children living in every continent on this planet will see this picture and know exactly what the fuck it means.
