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You fucking watched this video, and your takeaway was “Mamdani fucking loves cops now”? I don’t get it. Are we just accepting the framing from a self-identified MAGA Twitter account now? Did you make this meme? I’m seriously confused here. This “Pivot to Police” is literally right-wing framing being used, right now, against Mamdani:
The question was: “You know, there’s been a lot of talk here today about Andrew Como, and apparently, the person who wants to become the Mayor of New York, is now going to be calling on you and others to do something about increasing the number of police, not just accepting the number of police that are there now. But also to keep up the SRJ, which was responsible last week for going after the shooter last week on Park Avenue, and I wonder, you know obviously hes trying to go after a weak spot on you. I wonder if you would like to respond to that because that’s going to be his campaign pitch.”
His answer was:
- Why are 200 cops leaving a month? Forced over time.
- Why do they have so much forced over time? We’re making cops do things they shouldn’t do.
- What are the jobs cops shouldn’t be doing? Standing around the MTA, answering tourists questions about the MTA. Answering 200,000 mental health calls every year.
These are the exact kinds of policies that grew out of the Defund the Police movement in 2020.
What’s the deal here? The obvious way you fund this is by cutting police budgets and shifting that money into human services like the ones he’s referring to. Did you actually think Mamdani was going to abolish the NYPD? He would be the fucking head of the NYPD, for Christ sake. Even still, the right-wing media is trying to skewer him for his answer here. Somehow, they’ve come all the way around to being pro-defunding the fucking police because he outlined changes to the NYPD that could only be achieved through taking some of their annual funding, which won’t even be actual cuts, as we’ve seen before, but instead a pause in budget increases, or a 0% increase on the yearly budget.
these ultras that keep falling for fascist randos rhetoric is so annoying man. ultras are indistinguishable from radlibs istg
They are indistinguishable from radlibs because they functionally do nothing and are constantly annoying.
it’s the same disinterest in any and all material circumstance and focus on whinging for me. this person should just join the ACP if they want to annoyingly fedpost from some “most principled” left position that mythicizes Lenin
join the ACP? what are you even talking about? I should join the pro-police fascist party that itself participates in US elections because I think that an election candidate is being too pro-policing?
you really really need to touch grass
how about you say some shit that makes sense. call me an ultra like that other guy or something. don’t just say “duuhhhh ACP fedpost” and then “go touch grass” (are you stuck in 2022?) when i point out that it makes no sense
Yeah, saying “duuuhhhh he’s just like AOC, you fell for it again!” is so much better
these dang ultras with their [checks notes] expectation that socialists shouldn’t openly support the largest police department in the world at the centre of American capital
this interpretation has been debunked and you’re posting a fascist as a news source. i expect you to be better than that. look at what else this guy has posted today.
Damn, OP is fucking cooked ☠️
no it hasn’t “been debunked” that he explicitly supports the role of police in bourgeois society and has said so throughout his campaign. acct might be dogshit but the video of him next to Warren and his statements on the matter are real
You should learn the difference between a socdem and a socialist before you start criticizing a socdem for not being socialist enough.
You’d never catch me campaignin g with Liz Warren but on the flip side I’m never going to get close to being elected
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not really helping your case here
Op should touch grass
So the NYPD has a union, right? Curious if you really think that they will not get budget increases at all, like 0%, during negotiations? Also, do we know what is currently in the NYPD contract and when it expires and what budget increases look like year by year if it was ratified recently?
Or, idk how mayoral powers really work, does he have the unilateral ability to make monetary decisions like that regardless of union standing?
Oh shit, I actually found some info on the contract. It expired on the 31st of July, which means that they likely have been negotiating for several months now. I cannot say how many months it would take to TA and ratify a contract, especially if it goes to mediation just like this last contract. It is very possible that their budget and salaries will be settled and a contract will be ratified before Mamdani is even elected. Also, their contracts are 8 years long lmao
Did you actually think Mamdani was going to abolish the NYPD
no, i’m not an idiot
He would be the fucking head of the NYPD, for Christ sake.
yeah that’s basically the whole issue with this “just elect socialist candidates as Democrats” project that has so far resulted in nothing positive at all. based on Mamdani’s climbdowns over other issues such as the intifada fiasco, this is just looking like another AOC situation and another bunch of wasted potential and energy that could have gone towards more useful organising efforts. Talking about jobs cops shouldn’t do obviously suggests that there are jobs that they should be doing, which is a complete capitulation, unless you’re some kind of liberal who believes in the legitimacy of settler-colonial police forces.
I don’t see why he should moderate his rhetoric more given that he’s already basically certain to win. He should be doing the opposite if he’s a candidate worth supporting. But instead he’s just going to keep moving right and legitimising the rightmost sections of the DSA, who are hell-bent on making sure the organisation never becomes anything more than another Democrat-aligned NGO.
climbdowns over other issues such as the intifada fiasco
calling this a “fiasco” or an “issue” is a huge stretch. no one gave a shit about this outside of bad actors in the press and he never even used the damn phrase himself AIUI.
I don’t get it. Is funding human services part of the right wing agenda now?
no, the stuff i was saying is the issue i’m highlighting, not the stuff that i didn’t say, which as you’ll notice, i didn’t say
Ok, you said “climbdowns over other issues”, what are the other issues? You mentioned “the intifada fiasco”. Far as I can tell, he’s never actually called for a global intifada. The most he said, is that the language is politicized, and he’s not going to tell people to use something else, and has defended the use of the word intifada as simply meaning the word “struggle”. I’m not sure that it qualifies as a “fiasco” because I’ve not seen anyone but chuds give a shit about it.
Talking about jobs cops shouldn’t do obviously suggests that there are jobs that they should be doing,
Yes, the implication of this being that there are no jobs that cops should be doing. He’s not a police abolitionist, to my understanding, so I don’t know why this is something to even consider a “climbdown”. Defunding the police has always been a reformist position. He’s a Democratic Socialist; he is a reformist, which we understand will never bring about communism and the overthrow of capitalism, and yet his policies are still better on paper than anyone else on the field. This reformist position is why he’s winning so hard. People are so starved for change that they’ll even accept liberal reformist positions because they’re not getting it from anyone else.
which is a complete capitulation, unless you’re some kind of liberal who believes in the legitimacy of settler-colonial police forces.
Mamdani is absolutely a fucking liberal. Social Democrats are liberals; this isn’t a mystery or a smokescreen. It’s worth noting that Mamdani doesn’t answer the question that is begged by his response, which is “How do you intend to fund the hiring of these human services workers?”. The policies he outlines, hiring more human services and MTA workers, align with the liberal reformist defund the police policies, and so one can assume that’s how he plans on funding these new hires, but until he actually answers, we won’t know. This isn’t some full-chested embrace of the police, like the chud Twitter account is suggesting.
The thing that I find so frustrating here, is the obvious landscape we’re dealing with, which seems to be disregarded or downplayed. This is a political landscape that even reformists struggle to perform in. You would think, because of a couple of tweets from several years ago, Mamdani is running on the “Stalin’s Big Spoon ticket” based on the conservitive and moderate liberal reaction to his win. Moderate Liberal policy makers are frothing at the mouth over even the most milk toast reformist policy suggestions. Reformist policies that were sprouting from the heads of liberals only five years ago.
I really am curious what the other “climbdowns” in policy are. This one doesn’t seem to be one, even if he is dancing around the subject of how he is going to make these moves to expand human services employment.
I don’t see why he should moderate his rhetoric more given that he’s already basically certain to win. He should be doing the opposite if he’s a candidate worth supporting. But instead he’s just going to keep moving right and legitimising the rightmost sections of the DSA, who are hell-bent on making sure the organisation never becomes anything more than another Democrat-aligned NGO.
I am trying to understand where his position moved from and to. You can’t say his position “moved right” without establishing what his position was and what his position is now. If Mamdoni was saying “Abolish the Police” then obviously, this is a turn to the right. If he was saying “Defund the Police,” then this is pretty consistent with what he was saying. Here is now Fox News positions it:
New York Democratic mayoral nominee Zohran Mamdani continues to walk past comments advocating for defunding the police, including at a National Night Out Against Crime event in the city on Tuesday night, but his opponent, Mayor Eric Adams, is not buying it.
“You can’t become pro-public safety when you decide to run for mayor. That just can’t happen,” Adams said on Wednesday during a press conference, accusing Mamdani of flip-flopping.
“So are you just saying things to get elected, or are you saying things that you believe? Go look over my 30-year history, and you’ll see the consistency on what I want in this city around safety. Let’s not tinker with what’s working,” he continued.
So is that your position to? That you can’t be “pro-public safety when you decide to run for mayor”? Do words even have meaning? Because what Eric fucking Adams is implying here with the aid of Fox News, is that holding the reformist positon of “defunding the police” is at odds with “pro-public safety” because, in their framing, the only people who can provide public safety are the fucking cops. Mamdani didn’t answer that question by saying “Well naturally I’m going to put more cops on the street”. He answered it by saying “I’m going to hire other people to do the work cops are doing”.
You know who shared that position with Memdani? Cory Booker:
Booker, a former mayor of Newark, said when he ran police departments, “exhausted” officers would ask, “‘Why are we using police to deal with the fragility or vulnerability of our society?’”
“There’s so much money going into our police departments that is a more expensive way to deal with it,” he said.
While oppertunists like Booker (read most of the Democratic Party) have abandoned this position (since it became no longer “relevent”), Memdani is still advocating for policies that remove cops from the equation of “public safety”. Which is consistent with what “defund the police” meant in 2020.
I don’t expect much from Memdani. He’s not Lenin; you and I both know that. That said, watching moderates, centrists, and conservatives fucking puke over 2020-era reformist policy regarding public safety is what I would call a fucking win. It’s an opportunity to dredge up all the fucking shit they were saying back then and show how much they’ve fallen. This is exactly why you support liberal reformists like Mamdani, because they generate rhetoric and allow you to leverage their measily offerings against the wider political establishment. According to the Washington Examiner, Democrats were “warm to the idea” of “Defund the Police” in 2020. Now look at them.
I agree that there should be a new party, but that’s not going to happen. The parties are locked. There is no creating another party to contest the big two. This isn’t fucking Europe. It would require one of the parties to split and I don’t see those conditions anywhere.
Agree with basically everything you say, thank you for articulating these points!
What’s the deal here? The obvious way you fund this is by cutting police budgets and shifting that money into human services like the ones he’s referring to. Did you actually think Mamdani was going to abolish the NYPD? He would be the fucking head of the NYPD, for Christ sake.
I wanted to mention this yesterday but I didn’t want to be arguing with nerds all fucking day, but like, yeah
the same people shitting on him for “standing next to Elizabeth Warren” (???) are the same people who cheer when he says shit like he’s going to arrest Netanyahu if he comes to NYC- how the fuck do they think he’s going to have anyone arrested without a police force???
Hire me and my friends
that could only be achieved through taking some of their annual funding
Well that’s not true
Cops can just do less and NYPD can piss away the savings on a policing LLM or whatever new toy will fix everything
The progressive senator from Massachusetts swung by New York City on Monday to pay homage to Mamdani, who overwhelmingly won the Democratic nomination for mayor in June — but still hasn’t secured endorsements from many of New York’s party leaders.
Bro, you don’t NEED their endorsements! There were like 2-3 other candidates whose votes will go to you in the main election!! You fucking won the primary, even being labeled a dirty socialist! THE MASSES WANT SOCIALISM IT’S NOT A SCARY WORD ANYMORE!!!
From outside the US, i think people need to log off. He’s literally not “done” anything, there’s no falling for anything (yet). But it certainly doesn’t seem very useful to panic every time he shows that he’s… a demsoc. I never saw anyone pretend he was anything more than that.
Your elections are pretty fucked, best you can expect is to educate and agitate, and find relatively better footholds locally by improving local laws and conditions, as best as you’re able. All the political theater of election cycles and all the media stuff before someone is elected, that’s all pretty dumb imo. It’s theater, it’s media strategy, it’s fucking tiring and it’s not very productive to obsess about.
I guess I speak for myself here, but I kinda feel like its important to address some of the shit that he is doing that looks like backpedaling, and people’s pretty extreme defensiveness about it being pointed out.
To me what I see playing out is a broader issue about people’s priorities and principles, and isn’t pushing back against performative electoralism like…generally agreed upon by the vast majority of this site? Is it all of a sudden a forbidden offense to criticize a public figure? So I guess everyone needs to shut the fuck up about any criticisms of any marginally progressive political figure anywhere in the world, I guess.
Just very strange to me that it appears that many people’s politics have seemed to shift because of this guy, that’s what I perceive is the root problem here. I’m not against folks voting, or having optimism and hope about it, not at all. But being vehemently opposed to any and all criticism about him and not being able to see why people feel that way without disparaging them is troubling behavior. And I think that breeds more obnoxious behavior from skeptics, and then it snowballs.
That said this shit is probably sooooo tiring for folks everywhere else in the world and I’m so sorry about that lol. This may be my last foray into the struggle sessions about this so I can touch grass and stop adding to the problem.
No i’m not against the criticism and electoralism is extremely limited and mostly dumb, I’m just tired of seeing everyone frothing at the mouth on this topic every time. I really do not care THAT much about Mamdani, I’ll see if he’s elected and what he does/is pressured to do after that. All the media theater can be important but the defending AND the criticism seems kind of obsessive, like both people critiquing and defending are putting way too much energy and importance into those little things.
I don’t have a stake in this tho so maybe it’s very important, idk.
Oh yeah I just went off in a tangent there my questions werent directed at you just rhetorical.
I think the importance of it varies greatly amongst us USians, which is why you’re seeing it play out like this on hexbear
This is some dumb shit and I didn’t need to see it. Fuck you for posting it.
idk how people can watch someone win an election and see the entirety of the bourgeoisie shit themselves over it and then believe literally any and every thing they hear about them that would make them not like/discontinue their support of them without thinking “wow idk maybe I should step back here a bit and see what they even end up doing once elected”
no, better to go running hot to the presses with
shit every time Mamdani’s caught talking to a democrat because him being a neoliberal sheepdog sleeper agent “here to defuse revolutionary sentiment” is apparently infinitely more likely in the minds of some than “they’re smearing mamdani in literally every possible way” even though we literally saw a multi-month long period where they threw essentially whatever they could fucking think of at the wall to see if it would stick“wow idk maybe I should step back here a bit and see what they even end up doing once elected”
oh come the fuck on. this is the exact same shit you liberals always say about social democrats who are obviously moving rightwards and it always goes the same way in the end. you people are so fucking naive, and you’re acting as though I’m some conspiracy theorist who believes he’s a “sleeper agent” because I can remember this same song and dance happening over and over again with “socialist” election candidates running as Democratic candidates. no, I just think that this breed of politician plays a particular role in our society, even when their intentions are good, and that role is to restrict the scope of socialist political action and maintain the focus on bourgeois elections rather than any other means of pursuing power, while eventually being totally integrated into the mainstream liberal machine, as evidenced by him STANDING NEXT TO ELIZABETH WARREN IN THE VIDEO I’M POSTING ABOUT.
have none of you fuckers learned from the AOC experience? jesus christ.
totally integrated into the mainstream liberal machine, as evidenced by him STANDING NEXT TO ELIZABETH WARREN IN THE VIDEO I’M POSTING ABOUT
standing next to a democrat = total integration into the neoliberal genocide machine, yup
why did the bourgeoisie even try to smear the guy when it’s sooooo easy lol just sic hillary clinton on him or something. If he refuses to see her he’s an evil misogynist who loses liberal votes, if he doesn’t he’s sold out his brain to the clintonite neoliberal brain slug hive mind. i am a critical thinker
you missed a key word from that quote there
eventually being
meaning that he’s not there yet but give it a few years and yeah you’ll have another AOC on your hands
this happens literally every time with these candidates and you still keep falling for it lol
whatever, blocked nerd
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Weak
I’m just not sure the point of getting worked up. He’ll do what he does and we can react accordingly. It’s electoralism in the imperial core.
maybe he’s upset the NYPD is only losing 200 officers a month and wants to bump that number up?
Taking some questions and photos with Warren is “campaigning with her” now? He’s the democratic candidate for New York City, he’s accepting bended knees from the radlibs not the other way around, what policies or talking points has he changed because of her
“Allegedly upset that NYPD is losing 200 officers a month”
Then provide the MOTHERFUCKING QUOTE YOU WRECKER FUCKS, wtf is this destiny-style ass vague accusation horseshit?
wtf is this destiny-style ass vague accusation horseshit
Rare moment I wish more people were serially online so they knew what I was talking about when I used this.
You seriously need to calm down and quit fucking calling people wreckers. Having a critical opinion of a politician is not wrecker shit. The vast majority of us who have a skeptical eye towards him are not opposed to him winning and would be glad to see some real progressive policies enacted. Calling people wreckers, stupid, doomers, etc. is not constructive and tbh your back and forth about this recently just looks like a huge tantrum and not worth listening to no matter how much evidence you present to people.
I know that you poured a lot of yourself into his campaign, and I do hope that he wins, I think he’s got it in the bag. But, it is disheartening to see that right after he won the primary, it appears that he has weakened his position publicly, in interviews, which are the only things that the general public will going to go by.
That said, I agree that this post in particular is very uncharitable and there is no evidence backing it’s claim.
I do have genuine questions that you would probably be best equipped to answer. How will Mamdani circumvent the conditions of the NYPD union contract, that I believe is currently under negotiation, in order to ensure that their funding is frozen? This does not seem feasible to me. I linked some of the ratified proposals that NYPD won in their last contract elsewhere and I can link it for you if you’d like.
Next question: you keep talking about him making radlibs bend the knee, which ones are you talking about specifically? Other politicians like AOC/Bernie/Warren, liberal voters in NYC, or the business interests that he just met with?
You seriously need to calm down and quit fucking calling people wreckers
If someone posts unsubstantiated tweets by a bullshit artist, then don’t whine when they get called a wrecker
All I want are the quotes and videos proving these accusations, apparently demanding ANY level of due diligence is out of bounds for the anti-Zohran crowd, why is that? If Zohran is such an obvious bust then it should be easy, you see anybody coming to AOC’s defense these days?
PULL OUT THE RECEIPTS
In the news mega you called essentially everyone who disagreed with you stupid, a wrecker, a doomer probably more insults. This instance, yeah, I get it, but this behavior is not contained to this one misleading post.
I dont need to pull out receipts about this Warren shit because I didn’t post it. And many of us are not anti - zohran, we are critical of him. It’s bad faith that you accuse us of that even when we tell you REPEATEDLY. Take a step back on that, take him out of the equation and try to look at your aggressiveness towards anyone who has a different opinion than you.
Now, I asked some questions in good faith and am trying to be straight forward but also not slap fight with you. Are you able to answer those questions or will you, like you accuse others, not be able to provide answers on that and just ignore them? The questions come from a place of skepticism but they are genuine
Having a critical opinion of a politician is not wrecker shit.
That’s different from making claims without substantiating them with actual evidence. A meme isn’t proof, this isn’t facebook. No investigation, no right to speak
Regardless of investigation or not, having an opinion on a person is not wrecker shit. there are several other things that he has done that has formed negative opinions on him. This specific post, yeah, I can see that being wrecker shit. The person I was replying to has used that term over and over to insult people in different posts
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The contents of this tweet are disturbing IF true but I’m not going to take this at face value, lots of bullshit flying around.
So yeah, bullshit. Nothing he said was alarming. And look at that fucking account lol
The only disturbing part of this is him standing next to Elizabeth Warren, which is bad enough, no need imply other shit
i mean praising the NYPD commisioner and shaking hands with those pigs is pretty alarming for me given that they’re an occupying army who murder people constantly and beat the living shit out of anti-genocide protestors, but whatever. this impulse to justify the rightwards drift of DSA electeds no matter what has achieved so much in the past (look at AOC’s stellar record for example), so what do i know.
And look at that fucking account lol
idc about the account you can watch the video or google his comments yourself
i mean praising the NYPD commisioner and shaking hands with those pigs is pretty alarming for me given that they’re an occupying army who murder people constantly and beat the living shit out of anti-genocide protestors,
What did you expect him to do, give him a wedgie? I don’t even think any real leftist with ambition would go to war with the NYPD before even becoming mayor.
my issue is more that there are obvious and inherent flaws with the idea of “get socialists elected as Democrats” that are manifesting before our eyes, as they have done many times before, and that all the organising it took to get him to this point will end up being a counter-productive waste as well as legitimising the right wing of the DSA. like yeah we shouldn’t be aiming to put socialists in positions where they have to smile and shake hands with pigs.
Socialists and many on this site can’t come to a consensus on what to do with the the police, look at the opinions on this very website during BLM.
Here he said something that essentially boils down to let’s cut back on police by saying ‘we need to make police less involved with things’.
yeah we shouldn’t be aiming to put socialists in positions where they have to smile and shake hands with pigs.
Do we have guns? Are we aligned with paramilitary groups? No, we’re not even fucking close, so I think holding back on antagonizing one of the most powerful state backed militant groups before even gaining power is a good idea whether you’re a Democrat, DSA, or Communist
so we need to get guns and build paramilitary organisations, then, before messing in electoralism or anything else. for that we need to avoid legitimising electoralism, because people are going to choose that over armed action, because it’s far easier and feels safer. maybe what’s been going on in LA to counter the ICE raids would be worth learning from, rather than focusing on electing people to positions where they have to work with the police who support ICE.
shaking hands with those pigs
why would you expect someone to paint a crosshair on his face before building power and popular support that could protect him from the police. he’s not mayor yet
before building power and popular support that could protect him from the police
a) are the DSA actually “building power that could protect him from the police”
b) he is already the most popular candidate in the race by far
c) the NYPD is not going to assassinate him get over yourself he’s a Democrat not Fred Hampton
you sound a lot like the people who were saying “Starmer will move left once he’s in power just watch” a year ago
a) they’re trying to get a mayor in office, you might’ve heard of that
b) he hasn’t delivered for the people, support to vote for someone is a lower bar than putting themselves in front of bullets
c) do you think this is related to not approaching them with as much hostility as you’re condemning him for not using
you can’t have your cake and eat it too. Mamdani can be bad because he’s not doing a protracted people’s war, but Mamdani didn’t become bad because he won’t spit in cop’s faces while running in an election.
getting a politician elected to office in a bourgeois democracy is not “building power” in any way that matters for socialists. no, the fact that the NYPD haven’t assassinated him isn’t anything to do with what he’s said or not said, they don’t kill Democratic candidates because Democrats are not a threat to their role in society, as his statements and policies indicate. it’s actually absurd that people think something like that would happen if he were more anti-police, rather than the Democrats just ejecting him from the candidacy via more brazenly anti-democratic means.
DemSocs are still liberals. Mamdani wasnt going to be leading the vanguard. He’s basically Bernie.
“wow a DemSoc won a significant election in the imperial core, hope he can serve his constituents as best he can within the electoral system, since it’s pretty much the only option available. Otherwise we can hope that his failure to do so can give people the opportunity to develop politically in the same way that other electoral failures have been influential in my development”
“HAHA He’s not leading a revolution! Check you all this liberal shit! YOU FELL FOR IT AGAIN IDIOT!!”
thanks comrade, I guess…
He’s not leading a revolution!
that’s just correct. Is getting capitalism to fund shit for the working class an improvement? absolutely. Revolution? No.
He used the cops leaving as more ammo for his plan to replace them with social workers. He’s unironically doing 4D political judo to twist Americans’ brains into supporting leftist policies.
yeah this seems basically of a piece with past statements. running for mayor of a major american city on a platform of “fuck cops” (much as we would all get a kick out of it) is an excellent way to get one’s ass murdered, forget about not getting elected
unironically doing 4D political judo to twist Americans’ brains into supporting leftist policies
come on man you can’t “trick people into supporting socialism”. a significant part of New York’s population supports socialism and hates zionism, which resulted in his victory. he’s not tricking poor people into voting in their interests.
Isn’t tricking people into supporting socialism something that Lenin said very specifically NOT to do? Lol
This is the critique from leninists, he isn’t letting his alleged politics be in command - but since he isn’t a leninist why would we expect this? The critique is valid of communists but he isn’t a communist. Every Democrat and bourgeois candidate, mamdani included, says shit to get elected and usually backpedals a majority of it. He is doing what is expected but because he identifies as a democratic socialist it feels as if he should be held to a standard higher than he really deserves to be held to. I don’t think it’s fair to expect a liberal to be a communist, even if they think they are. What’s more annoying on this forum for me is the Democratic socialist members here acting like he isn’t a liberal, more so than the ML members acting like he should be a communist.
This is a good take. I recognize that he wasnt going to be a full on communist in terms of policies, but i think it is important to think of these things and name them here. How many people here proclaim to be principled communists, quote Lenin, but are aggressively going to bat for the dude? Like, insulting other people/engaging in personal attacks kinda aggressive? Perhaps I had the wrong impression thinking that more people here were a tiny bit more militant in their beliefs.
Its more about the people and their positions more than the man, to me. and it kinda feel like its a bad faith reading to assume that everyone is either saying he MUST be one or the other, end of conversation, but that seems to be the way most people are interpreting comments.
I said it in the last news struggle sesh on this topic but I do see a lot of people here with principled takes on the subject, which really makes the kinds of responses you are describing stand out to me. I think there is an underlying dialectic of bloom/doom (optimism/cynicism) mentality where some people just need to feel like the left is having a win and so get invested into being very hopeful and positive and that means that any critique which undermines that position is automatically “doomer.” Whereas I think many here can have a materialist take outside of this dialectic like “he is exactly what the has always been, a radlib, and he is doing nothing unexpected. There is also no reason to desire his loss because everyone else is worse and it will be good to see what happens if he wins whether he does better or worse than expected”
The one user here who worked on the campaign and is super invested because of it is being extra which I get on some level because it’s not just an abstract thing but a personal project that dozens of hours went into which affects the place he lives. There’s a lot of reason to take it personally for him, but I think being rude and insulting out the gate isn’t doing any favors or displaying a comradely debate style. I get clapping back when someone starts it tho
come on man you can’t “trick people into supporting socialism”
Why not? You can “trick” people to support any ideology. Fascists and liberals do this all the time.
a significant part of New York’s population supports socialism and hates zionism, which resulted in his victory
Sure, but if he said “all cops are bastards, we need to get rid of them”, he would lose the election.
as socialists we do not aim to convince people by misleading them about our aims and practices. if you try that then you’ll end up disappointing and pushing them away.
i don’t expect him to say “ACAB” or be a Maoist but there are ways to phrase that kind of sentiment that will command majority support and legitimise that way of thinking amongst a populace constantly browbeaten into not thinking that way. instead he’s choosing to legitimise the role of police in a society which generally mistrusts and fears them. and he already won the election that actually matters. he didn’t back down on anti-zionism before he won the primary and it worked, so why start backing down on issues and flirting with mainstream democrats now?
The general election is still pretty risky. If Cuomo and Adams suddenly merge their campaigns it could be Bernie 2020 all over again. So Mamdani is definitely trying to appeal to the liberal-leaning masses right now.
as socialists we do not aim to convince people by misleading them about our aims and practices. if you try that then you’ll end up disappointing and pushing them away.
I think delivering successful socialist policies is the best way to win people over. I don’t think it matters how you get there.
you can’t deliver successful socialist policies through electoralism in the most violent, expansive capitalist state on earth. you can deliver social democracy, maybe, at the expense of the global south. electoral success in imperial capitalist society = inevitable compromise to the point of abandoning either internationalism or socialist domestic policy.
did he actually say something bad or is this just fatalistic doomerism?
https://x.com/HOTWisconsin/status/1952418431816351973 video here. he’s always been soft on the NYPD but yesterday ramped it up. it’s not “fatalistic doomerism” to point out that the Democrats are a Nazi party actively committing genocide and anyone who thinks that project is worth “working within” is either compromised or stupid.
Seriously hating the take on this website right now that if anyone says anything slightly critical of him that we are doomers or wreckers or whatever the fuck. Does the concept of critical support just fly out the window? Do people not see that being so rigid and resorting to fucking name calling amounts to similar behavior of the blue MAGA crowd? Were they even old enough to vote in the 2020 elections and actually remember what the vibe was like for AOC and Bernie? Do they think us groaning on this website will influence votes? Idk.
“doomerism” is just reasonable pessimism about electoralism within a dying empire
I agree, but I think it is useful to balance it with hope, and I think a lot of us have that revolutionary optimism along with hopelessness whether we believe in electoralism or not.
pessimism of the intellect optimism of the will
I think amplifying a right wing bot account pushing values exactly opposite to the ones purported in the meme, just to make your own point is more distasteful than some instance of made up bullshit about Mamdani
I think that in itself is a very fair criticism, but my bone to pick extends beyond this post
That’s fair. I’m glad you’re here because you make valid points and part of what makes hex good.
Aww thanks I appreciate that!
people would probably have more measured responses if wankers weren’t all
over literally every single thing the guy does that they disagree withstill waiting to see what he does after the election because giving a shit before then is a waste of time lol
In the last struggle session I saw a lot of insults being hurled and gnashing of teeth towards skeptical people who were replying pretty respectfully. And since the very beginning when he won the primary, perhaps even before that, this intense defensiveness was present even though no one was really criticizing the guy until he started capitulating. So nah, its not about that IMO.
Idk why people need to take it as a personal attack and defend him for every shitty concession he makes, that’s Democrat behavior. Until this guy came up it seems like Mamdani stans were on here were handing the
out to everyone who is to the right of them as well, but now suddenly they just go feral. What were these people’s rhetoric towards police before Mamdani came on the scene? It just really really feels like a lot of people are only willing to see what he is doing 54D chess instead of, idk, maintaining hope but also acknowledging that some of what he’s doing now is sus.I think I feel safe to say that most of us skeptics, including myself, really want to see if he sticks to his guns when he wins and we hope he does. but it seems that people think that if you aren’t 100% behind him, you’re 100% against him and want him to lose which is fucking ridiculous. That’s mostly what I take issue with, not the fuckin dude himself, it’s peoples behaviors around him and throwing any critical beliefs about electoralism out the window.
sorry if I seem mad at you ratboy i’m not I’m mad at being called a liberal by OP
Nah it’s all good, I use the Royal “you” all the time lol. I appreciate your clarification though
I see what you’re saying even if I personally think that “we are doing the cops work for them” is a bit of a reach.
Yeah he’s not in office, but I kinda feel like all politicians and candidates should be held to task every step of the way. If we don’t, then what happens? People only hoot and holler with joy and support him no matter what until he’s elected, and then recognizing that hes gotten nothing but support even as he backtracks publicly, wouldnt it make sense for him to think that the softening up strategy is how he should keep moving since there was no criticism of it before? I personally would be more vocal about him needing to earn my vote and stick to his principals instead of just forgoing my vote altogether if I did hear criticisms like these.
I have also seen the argument that if he sticks to his guns and doesn’t backpedal publicly to the establishment that that would hurt his chances. But what do they even have to do with that? It’s the people that are voting, why give so much power to wall street or whatever the fuck. If people were gonna be bought off they would have already, and I really doubt that his popularity has surged due to his rubbing elbows with Blackrock and complimenting the police.
Also I agree with you about this post in particular, that not every single little thing should be scrutinized so heavily but I think it’s pretty difficult not to, especially with the whole Bernie Sanders thing back in the day, combined with just… The history of politics in general
my issue is I saw the dude win the primary, saw the bourgeoisie poop their pants over it in a very genuine seeming way, saw them try and fail to smear the guy for months, so, idk, with that as the backdrop it seems to me like this is a very obvious and apparently quite successful attempt to bleed his actual leftist support by making him out to be a sell-out
the election isn’t even over, I don’t think it helps anything remotely resembling left wing politics to help our enemies by leaping to be critical of him when, again, the election isn’t even fucking over. Let’s say everyone suddenly agrees with OP and sees him as a sellout, whatever support he has collapses, and the idfk Cuomo or Silwa or Adams wins. good job, that’s all this criticism really helped do!
some people might take this as me being 100% defending him or whatever but my position is “idk maybe shut up about him until the election is over, see what he actually does as mayor instead of what he does to get elected, since it doesn’t really fucking matter until then”
like christ do you honestly think it’s a good thing for people to literally, literally in the case of OP, say that he’s 100% sold out “because he’s seen standing next to elizabeth warren?” that’s fucking absurd and what really gets me is it’s coming from a crowd whose opinion towards electoral politics is “it’s all fucking useless anyway.” I don’t need the “electoralism is useless” crowd to tell me out of one side of their mouth that voting is pointless, then out of the other that this guy is a sleeper agent here to steal our votes for the Democrats
exactly, the guy is going to win anyway and becoming the mayor, he doesn’t need your support, you’re a new york citizen and you’re finally getting basic rights? Congratulations, but don’t forget the rest of the world.
Yeah I really cannot see Cuomo pulling a victory. If you count the votes for the other progressive candidates towards him, he won overwhelmingly. And he even had pacts with one or two candidates to endorse eachother and encourage their voters to go for the other if one lost or won the primary. The only way he would lose, IMO, is if he keeps capitulating to the Dems. It doesn’t matter what his actual policies are, the public is not going to dig into all of that (unfortunately). They want stump speeches, and what he was giving is what won everyone over. If he keeps backtracking publicly in order for his secret Maoist plan to come to fruition, people will not give a shit about that strategy. People vote for Trump because he’s a brand, he’s “funny”, he is a bully and he shakes shit up, not really because they understand his real policies or intention at all. Americans want sensationalism.
I don’t live in NYC. If I did, I would vote for him, it would be very interesting to see how it all plays out and I’d be overjoyed if he made big changes. But I think for some folks they are being a bit myopic right now which is understandable, but like you said, there are many things to which we still need to pay attention to, and he won’t be the solution to things globally. I hope that people won’t feel like they can rest of their laurels if he does get elected
Sorry that was way longer of a comment than I expected.
Socialist Majority Caucus wants this. They didn’t “fall” for anything.
yeah that’s true
Just leaving myself a reminder to read this later when it’s passing 100 comments
Soooooo-eeeeee!
where did that bring you?
who knew that this is what happens when you put faith in a Democrat? we’ve never seen anything like this before. usually the grassroot candidate goes way left after getting elected, not the other way around! anyway, let’s make sure that this strategy gets replicated across the country…
We will be proven right about this guy and a hefty amount of the users here will become the eli valley comic, but for “knowing mamdani was just another sheepdog” or something
The CIA doesn’t need cointel pro anymore. The state of the post-Bernie left is that if anyone left of center so much as wins a primary we just start tearing ourselves apart.
with cointel amateurs like these, who needs cointel pros?
Gonna be honest I definitely fell for it
i thought he sounded cool too but in the end it’s just another counter-insurgency candidate trying to capture and waste as much socialist organising capacity as possible.
never vote for a democrat
what insurgency?
the one that revolutionaries have been trying to build against American capital since the 1960s? including the campus uprisings and the largest wave of rioting in the US in history that both occured in the past 5 years? if you aren’t aware of the use of that term to describe the role of left-liberal politicians in capturing and containing radical dissent that would otherwise lead to an escalation of struggle then you can just avoid participating in the conversation, you know.
Can you elaborate on how Mamdani captured and contained radical dissent outside of you saw some people online being positive about him? Like what actual capturing have you seen? Did PSL go all in on this guy? Are people not protesting because of a supposed dem soc is running for mayor in NYC? What revolutionary capacity exists that this guy is draining?
mainly by legitimising the bourgeois electoral process as a means to achieve power against capital, which forestalls the development of revolutionary consciousness. if the DSA were more like a Bolshevik party (or a party of any kind, really) then these campaigns would be more useful bc they’d be able to dictate his moves and use him to demonstrate the inadequacy of bourgeois electoralism, but instead this campaign is leading the DSA in the direction of further participation in electoral politics as a route to achieve “socialism”.
What revolutionary capacity exists that this guy is draining?
it’s more about how over-emphasis on electoral struggles in imperial countries prevents the necessary development of revolutionary capacity. the only usefulness of these kinds of candidates is when they inevitably move into the Democratic mainstream and inadvertently disillusion a lot of people who were hoping they’d be more radical, which results in SOME of them developing more revolutionary ideas as a by-product (while pushing more of them into apathy or outright reaction)
mainly by legitimizing the bourgeois electoral process as a means to achieve power against capital, which forestalls the development of revolutionary consciousness.
Now explain how you achieve power against capital in 2025 USA. That’s rhetorical because nobody knows. If we knew the exact path from right now to communism, every choice and who needs to do what, then we would already be there. It’s not enough to point towards vague concepts outlined in theory, there has to be an actual implementation. So far, nobody has that. Is it just unionizing? Is it protesting? Is it mutual aid? How do these things grow to communism without electoralism in 2025 US? We don’t know and can’t rule out some curve ball path that includes electoralism. The only way we know is by doing, because historical materialism is an inductive process that moves between theory and practice. It’s not determined ahead of time from a list of axioms about revolution.
In practice, if someone who is at least sympathetic to socialist policies gets in, they need support. It can’t be that we just expect them to do socialism by themselves, with only their little cabinet. If there is not political pressure from the streets constantly pressing, then of course they’re going be sellouts. They will be alone in trying to implement long-shot policies. If people are in the streets every week, supporting radical policies, then that gives the candidate ammo to use against outside pressure. Imagine an establishment dem tells him he can’t say defund the police but he has thousands in the streets every weekend saying defund the police. Even if he starts out wishy-washy but sympathetic to the idea, being able to wield the cudgel of popular support will make the stance clearer.
I do understand that a mayor of NYC will not bring about communism. However there is an opportunity to make it a notable landmark on the journey to communism. It’s at least an opportunity to do the practice of implementation, and get people out of the analysis paralysis of theory and posting.
Lol
wow the proportionally tiny number of left-liberal politicians to achieve prominence over that period did an incredible job knifing all that revolutionary energy
it may be hard for you to conceive of this but the DSA is a relatively large (by the standards of the US left) organisation which can direct its membership to participate in different political activities, and if they choose to direct them to do one thing, then they can’t actually do others as much. so the decision about what is prioritised does matter. this is called “political strategy”.
setting aside whether we can call DSA “revolutionaries” or adjacent to them or whatever, didn’t their ranks swell up quite a bit due to the Bernie campaign?
there are revolutionary socialists and communists within the DSA, i’m not trying to call them a revolutionary org, but there are factions within it that are struggling to make it more of one
yeah they swelled their ranks due to the Bernie campaign but that was more of a by-product, and as we’re seeing, a lot of those people basically want the org to be a Democrat-supporting NGO because their thinking didn’t evolve beyond “elect socialists as Democrats”. I don’t think Mamdani’s going to have the same kind of effect, either.
fool me once…
