MJ was heavily abused physically and mentally in his youth. Being raised as a Jehovah’s Witness fucks you up in a lot of ways so those of us from that era and background were never surprised at how he became a fucked up adult.
And to be clear, none of that excuses the things he did, but it does help explain how they came to be.
They don’t believe in birthdays or toys or gifts for Christmas. As far as I can tell all of their beliefs about children are centered around creating the most joyless upbringing possible.
There was one girl in my class that was Jehovah’s witness when I was little. Every time we would have a class party she would have to go sit in the corner and just watch us all stuffing our faces with sugar and having fun.
That only just scratches the surface, mon ami. ANY celebration, except Passover, (which they refer to as the Memorial) is evil and to be rejected. On top of that, the JWs underwent a major shift around 1975. Internal discipline was ramped way up and overall the religion went to a “Armageddon is coming any day” footing. Children as young as 3 were told that the End was coming soon, and it could happen next month, next week, tomorrow, or an hour from now, and if they weren’t obeying the teachings of the faith that they would die in a fiery apocalypse
This message was repeated to them multiple times a day, with parents being told that they would be held responsible for their children as well. If child was found unworthy of survival at Armageddon, so would they.
Every single waking moment was viewed as a moment to demonstrate faithfulness to the teachings of the Governing Body, every single opportunity to attempt to bring in new worshippers had to be taken. If not, you risked death.
And this is without mentioning that all JWs were expected to have as few contacts with non-believers as possible, except when preaching to them. No friends outside the faith. No relationships on any level with anyone who wasn’t a believer. From the oldest down to the babies, you were supposed to have only absolutely necessary contact with those who weren’t JWs.
“Heavily influenced”
“slightly modified”
Hmm, all MJ moves weren’t his. Its like all his moves are from just this movie.
I mean, yes and no. You can see all the iconic MJ moves in Bob Fosse’s performance here, but they’re not quite the same. As well, Bob Fosse, as far as I know and I honestly don’t know anything beyond this clip and I can’t be bothered to look it up, wasn’t also a singer and songwriter.
As well, there is rarely ever an original form of art - every great artist has either copied or stolen from someone else.
Terry Pratchett, an author that I greatly respect and admire, straight up stole/paid homage to all kinds of pop culture movies and science and quotes - he dressed up those stories and made them his own.
Rap artists off all kinds will steal bars and hooks from one another all the time.
I guess my point is, at what point is it paying homage to something and at what point is it stealing? If someone truly made something original it would likely be rejected for being so obscure as to be offensive to “good taste.”
Stealing a bar, or a concept, or a sample, all are really normal, as they’re transforming the art. They’re meant to help you remember the old piece with a little nostalgia.
He took 100% of the choreography here from a movie that was hardly seen in the US. This is not to say he wasn’t talented at it. But you throw that together with a moonwalk and a few other pieces and you have 100% of his stage presence.
As well, there is rarely ever an original form of art
Please reread what you wrote.
from the first arranging of some feathers, or charcoal finger strokes in some cave a hundred thousand years ago, EVERY new thing, color, stroke, note arrangement, word composition, has been original. Some of these, of course, have been used as a basis or inspiration, or part of newer artistic expressions. Often, it’s nature that provides the inspiration. La Sagrada Familia cathedral is inspired by these stalagmites children (and some adults) make by dropping watery sand down a mound, for example.
It’s like saying that when some hominin drew a circle in the sand, and another who saw him drew a square, the second one copied him. Well, you could say the 2nd copied the moving finger in the sand, but it fucking invented the square. Yeah, I know, Pyrite et Al. would like a word.
Michael Jackson literally cloned these moves and style. Almost 100%.
Although there is a fine (blurry?) line between inspiration and imitation, MJ was waaaay inside the imitation demarcation.
Give a different concept to Smooth Criminal if you wantch the scene in its entirety from the movie.
Isn’t the whole point of Terry Prachett’s works to create witty and endearing satire? I always read his books as him looking at our world and reality through the perspective of a very intelligent, childlike mind, that questions and rejects our world as for being nonensical and through Discworld, he makes a world that makes a lot more sense even if it appears absolutely bonkers. To Discworld, we are the weirdos. That is what I really enjoyed about his books. He forces you to think about the absurdity of our reality by asking frankly ridiculous questions and then through his clever storytelling and social and political commentary, he always manages to deliver a well thought out point that makes you appreciate all kinds of facettes of life.
In the case of Terry Prachett, the theft of ideas is the entire point and not a natural bi product of being a creative.
That is the best description of the Discworld books that I have ever read. How you describe it was “clear” to me for 20 years now, but I could have never stated this fact as eloquently as you did here.
Thank you, friend xD i am a bit surprised because i was a very sleepy bish when i wrote my comment and felt like i was writing word salad, but went “fuck it. This is as good as it gets. Post!”
Glad my comment was more coherent than i thought and that it resonated with a fellow Terry Prachett-appreciater! <3
You sound confident, but no…
“Not quite the same” is frankly, respectfully, a semantic bullshit position here. All of what Jackson did was 99.7% the spirit of this Fosse performance. Period.
Further your point about rap is off as well because they don’t “steal”, they sample - meaning they license the use with legal permission OR they pay in court after the fact. It’s listed in the liner notes and credit is given directly, unlike with Jackson and Fosse as I’d never once heard or read this growing up.
So again, you sound confident, while being very wrong.
Don’t know what you’re talking about, Shakespeare wrote the first story about two people falling in love. That not ending well, also Shakespeare original.
I cant tell if you’re joking or just wrong.Clearly you’re joking, and I’m just too sleepy to pick up on the sarcasm.
What a Greek tragedy! 🙃
Also, a Shakespeare invention!.
Badum chi 🥁
Bob Fosse has been insanely influential on pop culture in general.
Even that scene in The Birdcage!
Which one?
Hunh. YT’s gettin’ ornery w/ its trace tails —on first glance, I thought that link ended with “?t=65&is=FuckOff” 🤣
It’s not; I put that there purposely.
Wait, can you make it say anything after the ? mark?
Yep!
It probably still works as a tracker anyway connecting people that opened with that string. The only difference being that the creator of the link isn’t known.
Why isn’t it checking your filesystem though?
I mean, all of them, really. 😋 Specifically, though? Yeah, that one 👇🏼 😉
The movie Sweet Charity is a great reference.
Sweet Charity was one of the most formative movies in my childhood. For me.
MJ: “you know, I’m something of a snake in the grass myself”
Considering the thematic overlaps between said character portrayed and MJ’s off-stage history IRL… 🥲
Thats so fucking cool!!!
Wonder where Bob Fosse got it? A combination of previous performers or something completely original, which is rare.
Fred Astaire, probably.
I’d put some money on Jim Crow. Look up some of the symbolism Childish Gambino used in This is America.
Bob Fosse was amazing, I am sure it was original with him.
Oh cool, so not only was he forgiven for being a pedophile but his entire (later) image was a ripoff
I stopped listening to his music in the 90s when the accusations came out. But I’ve spent a lot of time seperatijg the tabloid smears, the false or unlikely allegations from his own story. I’m convinced he was destroyed for his money.
We should enjoy his music and his legacy. And I say that as a survivor myself.
Did you watch “Leaving Neverland”?
I read the transcript. I was almost convinced until the discrepancies emerged later.
You read the transcript of a 90 minute movie?
Others’re bound to accomplish what you’d rather not.
Not . . . watch the movie? That would seem to be the most complete way to absorb the information. But sure, finding and reading the transcript instead of watching it is something i’d rather not.
I notice the first link to a transcript search is the Michael Jackson Innocence project. So - look, if anyone hasn’t just watch it. It’s a better experience than this:
I disagree, based on the simple fact that transcripts aren’t often as full of visual trickery, etc. as their video/film products —and not just because “little lies” are essential to the latters’ very creation. ☝🏼
The video is a lot longer than 90 minutes. The transcript is around 100 pages. The language is simple so you’d read it in an evening.
But you’re missing the sound and visuals. That informs the context. Plus the transcript is auto-generated. Why read it but not watch it?
And yes, you’re right, both episodes together are 236 minutes total.
Generally, I think the video format is responsible for a lot of disinformation getting swallowed wholesale. The people I know who fall for disinformation get it from videos. They (the videos) usually have no other sources than themselves, nobody to challenge in the video itself, and it’s very difficult to reference parts of the video for critical discussion. It’s the perfect medium for a Gish gallop.
So I read it because I didn’t want to take in information passively. 4-hours is too much information to process critically in one go. It’s easy to watch that and be led to the conclusion the producers want with cut scenes, music choices, etc. After hearing so many falsehoods and retractions, I wanted to digest it properly.
The word “documentary” does not mean truth. In some cases it means a completely unchallenged and biased narrative led to deceive, such as the documentary Vaxxed, which was also promoted by a massive platform when it came out. It’s hard to put the genie back in the bottle after something like that.
I’m not necessarily judging the individuals in the video. If they have a case, it was badly represented by a documentary that did not check some facts that are essential to their core claims. Their director is also very odd. Regardless of what happened, to say Jackson was “worse than Epstein” is just not something a thinking person would say in an age where those victims are also trying to get justice.
Are you going to explain what specific audiovisual component might, if seen, lead someone to conclude that Michael Jackson shouldn’t have been acquitted? Or is this just some vague allusion to nonexistent super-important context that invalidates all the legal proceedings so you don’t have to actually make a solid case for your accusation?
Not the one you replied to, but I did, and it was very hard to dismiss. I still don’t think I have, completely. Maybe I should, logically, but emotionally it was hard to let go. Still conflicted about it, because the conspiracy against Michael scenario is just as probable.
There is literally no proof he was a pedophile.
Sarcastic edit: The snake in that scene is telling the boy that all his problems will go away if he stings him with his stinger. The pedophillia was obviously also copied from this scene.
No proof except multiple eyewitness / victim testimony and a mountain of corroborating evidence. Like Epstein. Or trump.
The relevant Wikipedia page coalates the mountain of all the evidence related- I hadn’t read it till recently when someone linked it and I really have no stake in this, I don’t really care about mj, but the evidence really doest point to him being a pedophile.
It points to him having an unhealthy and innapropriate relationship with children and the idea of childhood. But theres honestly a really big gap between what it points to and being a pedophile who has sex with children
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Michael_Jackson_sexual_abuse_allegations?wprov=sfla1
Just watch “Leaving Neverland”. It’s spelled out very plainly.
Just watch the music video to " Smooth Criminal". Absolute masterpiece.
Cinema is not a valid reference source, even “documentaries” aren’t required to be 100% true.
FFS, even penguins were propagandized for generations before the public was allowed to learn that they’re ridiculously homocidal rapists, etc. 🤷🏼♂️ The latter came from the field journals penned during the first excursion through their territories, way back when. The cover up that swiftly followed said expedition’s report was bankrolled by the running class & its academic policy makers.
Neither is Wikipedia. It’s even less trustworthy outside of America because of the strong bias toward the US narrative. But fuck all of you that defend the child molester Michael Jackson. May you never know what if felt like for all his victims. No, sleeping in the same bed with minors and having them be in underwear is not appropriate and is paedophilia. So fuck you .
Not accounting for the international conspiracy to cover up penguin behavior characteristics, the film interviews two men who were boys at the time as well as their family, friends, and archival materials.
Eyewitness testimony is legally valid, and it’s hard to imagine two different people had the same story, but the other - 50? 100? kids didn’t.
The film says it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck and demands the bloody underwear be retrieved out of the trash before the cops find it like a duck.
He was phenomenally talented, there’s no doubt. But very troubled as well, and part of that was sexualizing young boys.
“Legal” ≠ “factually correct”, though. ☝🏼
Again, you seem to be founding a lot on outdated and/or debunked views/methods like eyewitness testimony, and I’m hoping you take your experience from this thread to make some changes, fellow pleb. 🙇🏼♂️
Documentaries do not exactly have the best track record when it comes to choosing between accuracy vs the more salacious story, I think a documentary is uniquely poorly suited to being a meaningful source on this subject in my eyes 😅
Ideally we would collect ALL primary sources and defer exclusively to what those primary sources say, but thats not exactly feasible for us to do.
On Wikipedia, subjects with very high visibility and interest tend to mean that people must be able to make a strong case for the information that makes it into the article. On a platform like Wikipedia, that means you need primary sources, meaningful evidence, to support what gets to be written when everyone has a strong opinion. If we’re to take a single tertiary/secondary source collating information to be a useful indicator, I think Wikipedia is, in kind of the opposite fashion, uniquely well suited to presenting an understanding of what happened
And the extraordinarily long article on Wikipedia doesnt suport the idea that he wanted to have sex with children. It points to him wanting very badly to vicariously experience the innocence of youth that he never got to, in a similar way to how some parents want to vicariously experience the accolades or ability of their child (mothers putting their child through pageants, fathers caring too much about their kid’s victory in sports). And I don’t think that’s a healthy thing to do to a child- it mirror grooming and normalizes that as a way for a relationship with an adult to look, and that is potentially extremely damaging. But the evidence doesnt really support the idea he wanted to have sex with children.
multiple eyewitness / victim testimony
All of whom have since either quietly retracted their testimony and/or admitted they lied.
a mountain of corroborating evidence
A false accusation can’t be corroborated
Like Epstein. Or trump.
Are you this mad about them too? Or do you only pick on the easy targets to make yourself feel big?
All of whom have since either quietly retracted their testimony and/or admitted they lied.
That’s not true.
Are you this mad about them too?
Madder, fwiw. Trump’s dancing is awful.
Most of whom
Better? Now it’s accurate.
You’d have to quantify them, which is difficult as many did not come forward.
Ah, I wasn’t aware that unsubstantiated claims were given that much latitude in your argument —though, I could’ve guessed. 😅
I like how he thinks that just mentioning Epstein and Trump, when talking about pedos, makes him right.
You do? Weird.
People also came out saying their parents were money hungry cunts who wanted a piece of the pie. THEY were okay to let their kids sleepover at a complete strangers home, but no one blames them skmehow.
Lots of people blame them. I blame them. They blame them. They said so, on camera, with examples of how they failed. One of which was getting financial rewards for looking the other way.
There was also no proof my uncle raped me. But, guess what, he did.
I’ll assume You’re joking, because that would be the worst argument ever made.
Why on earth would anybody joke about that?
You’ve been fooled by propaganda.
His image was attacked and destroyed because he wouldn’t sell his music catalog.
Oh yeah, totally normal for a bunch of different children to accuse him of sexual abuse. I’m glad people believed me when I told them what my uncle did. I’d be a whole lot more fucked up if people didn’t take me seriously…and guess what, I’m still pretty screwed up from it.
I’ve seen an interview with someone who was offered money by those trashy British tabloids to concoct a story. They told the “journalist” that nothing improper had happened and the journalist told them that if they decided to change their story, there would be good money in it.
My point is, there was a lot of money and other infrastructure making allegations very attractive to fabricate.
Then there’s the actual FBI and parents who have been trying to concoct stories about him, while apparently they have protected actual pedophiles such as Epstein. Here’s one account of that (90 second clip): https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=O9hesItLnuk&ra=m
So you didn’t find it weird that the young kid Michael showcased on stage slept in the same bed as Michael in the hotels, while his family was given a room at the other end of the hotel. It seems super inappropriate, but besides Michael I also blame the parents … because you don’t let your kids sleep in a hotel room with a grown man. Even if he was famous.
Yes, I find that wholly inappropriate.
There’s a lot more than one inappropriate thing. A lot more.
No link or citation is bold for such a take. Not heard it before now.
He slept in the bed with children that werent his own and were obsessed with them. Its not a thing a normal adult does.
100% he was not normal and was abused his whole life. Whether he was fondling anyone or not, we’ll never know for certain, but none of those kids should have been allowed to do that just to leave a safety margin.
It’s not impossible that he became a rich target for extortion, but he was off enough that it would def have been grounds for pedo like restraining orders.
How exactly is anything about this post “forgiving Michael Jackson”?
Not this post. The vast majority of society in the United States and unknown other countries are very ‘yeah he was a confirmed disgusting person but his contributions to music and society!!1!’
You’re right, but there’s way too much MJ dick riding in the world for it to ever be a popular thing to say.
Yeah, because you being wrong simply isn’t possible.
Not in this case, pedophilic billionaire dickrider.
He’s probably too old for that.
Still, just alive enough for them, though.
Just for Billie Jean, not his entire image.
thafuq? Is that the only song of his you know? That dance style was integral to much of his whole thing, and permeated his own style from very early on. 🤙🏼
Cool find!
Cue the pedophile threadjack.
Was he ever convicted of anything?
We was not. And he’s been defended by some of the kids too.
Every time that happens I’m reminded of the saying, “You can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into”.
Yeah, reason didn’t get you here, reason won’t get you out.
professorchangsquinting.gif
Creepy as fuck pedophile snake man and the little prince. Definitely something MJ would re-enact with his child brides.
Mj was married to a child? Elaborate please
He had multiple mock wedding ceremonies where he married children as young as 9. I watched a documentary and the boy had the ring and pictures to prove it. I think Michael bought the parents a house.
Which movie. I’m very interested. I always figured he was just stuck in a childs mindset and didn’t mean harm to other kids, just wanted friends his age. So I’d really like to see this movie.
I am not sure the exact one since I watched several, but my wife says it was probably Leaving Neverland.
I found a 2 part mini series called leaving neverland, the thumbnail looks like what you’re describing. Gonna download it
Just curious; why are you abusing Bob Fosse of being a paedophile?
Creepy scene, maybe it was purely artistic.
And no, I am not abusing Bob Fosse. I don’t even know the guy.
I did just watch a couple of his other choreographies though. I think the style is interesting for sure.
Since you brought it up though it looks like he was a prolific sexual assaulter and was exposed to sex and likely molested at a young age.
A womaniser who has extramarital affairs, sure… However, calling someone a prolific assaulter or a paedophile would need to be backed up by some kind of evidence. You’re spreading ill words about a man who is not longer alive and able to defend himself. That’s just as bad, or even worse than doing it to someone who is alive. Please think over things before you post.
I looked it up, go troll someone else defender of rapists and paedophiles.
Who’s doing the trolling? I’m not gonna let people throw around accusations unanswered. If you only have bile to contribute, spew it out in the gutter where it belongs.
You are full of shit for sure, did you research it? Fuck no. I did. You are wrong and should stop defending garbage people.
Edit:
https://www.moveyourstory.org/blog/2018/2/10/fossemetoo
https://hebontheweb.blog/2019/05/11/bob-fosse-victim-and-perpetrator-of-sexual-assault/
Where is the evidence of the paedophilia you have tripled down on?
Your first link details his history of sexually abusing adult women. Unacceptable, but doesn’t support your claim.
Your second link is mostly about him being a victim of rape himself, which is a strange inclusion.
This research smells of a presupposed conclusion.
Bob Fosse should’ve faced the justice system for his abuse of adult women. But you have shown nothing that indicates he would be charged for anything sexual with a minor.
version with music?
Stolen by a smooth criminal
seing the original compared to the 30s highlight, I understand the saying: " great artist steal": MJ took 5 move in a whole 2min routine, and stole them. Another artist would have just copied the whole routine. I would never think about choosing those 5 move seing the movie. I wouldnt realise they were the best moves. It tool a MJ to get them and make them pop
thanks, was much more fun.
