I disagree with the framing that the US was “bamboozled” into anything. They have been wanting this war since the Islamic revolution.
it’s an english tweet and it’s targeted at americans. phrases like war of choice are only used in english media. sadly the only framing that works on the average american is being betrayed by foreigners.
I think he means that Netanyahu lied to Trump about Iran having plans to assassinate him which is why they were so keen on killing khomeini and trump tweeting after “I got him before he got me”
I think the Araghchi tweet is in reference to Trump’s speech last night which claimed that China changed the outcome of the 2020 election so that Biden would win, a conspiracy theory that makes no sense.
Araghchi is saying that Israel has more interference in US elections through lobbying and Christian Zionist politicians, than China has over any US politics.
China changed the outcome of the 2020 election so that Biden would win
And he immediately rewarded them by putting a 100% tariff on EVs, lol,
Biden also told the media that Xi Jinping is a dictator only minutes after speaking face-to-face with Xi in California. It is Trump making the absurd claim. The way that you quoted my sentence makes it seem like I said that.
??? I wasn’t trying to say you said anything, just quoted the bit that supposedly makes biden and china friendly (if true) with a fact that indicates it’s not
I guess you’d have preferred i quoted the “a conspiracy theory which makes no sense” but i mean I was offering a fact to back that up
Edit: this sounds more hostile than i feel fyi i ain’t mad
Sure, I just always get annoyed when the US is framed as this bumbling oaf and not a deliberately evil machine.
Arrogance often leads to bumbling oafdom.
It does say something that this administration was the only one foolish enough to do it. Trump seems to hate Iran more then any other president for some reason.
Of elected presidents, you are probably right. Kamala was giving hitlerian speeches about Iran though, so I think that’s where the Dems were trying to go.
Gotta love “Friends for Peace” cold texting me to tell me that Israel has a right to defend itself. I’m most definitely on a list somewhere already so I shot the bull shit with their LLM, but yeah. Wouldn’t recommend responding in an anti Israel way to their messages lest you be aggregated onto an enemies list.
Lmao I got the same texts from the same “Friends for Peace” wanting to ask me about US-Israel relations and then just giving me AI rundowns about how we gotta bomb Iran for freedom and cheap gas
Woah look out FM of Iran you’re about to have a LOT of angry hexbears mad that you’re intimating ZOG conspiracy theories by implying israel, a country, has any influence over the United states. Doesn’t he know they’re really just one government led by zionists (but not in a ZOG way)
Disclaimer: if you take this as an opportunity to
at me over the Real True U.S.- Israel relations I will simply be even more obnoxious the next time something like this happensI don’t know what previous struggle session you’re subtweeting about but if you’re getting “pro-Israel” vibes from Hexbear then, well…
I did a thing for a long time where israel would do something like have nationals in the u.s. get caught running illegal biolabs only to be sent home without charge, or netanyahu giving trump a golden pager right after the terrorist attack on Lebanon with pagers, etc etc., with “just normal vassal behavior” (because i don’t think it’s normal vassal behavior) and in the course of it had numerous nerds mad at me for asserting that israel has any influence whatsoever over the United states. The very concept of israel being anything other than a puppet that exists at the pleasure of the U.S. was derided and I was at numerous points implied to be acting anti semitically for the mere suggestion that israel influences the u.s. in any way at all
That dorner dipshit i just blocked is basically continuing that insisting i have bad analysis. These nerds also can’t ever seem to read what I am saying for what it is and wish to read into it nonsense like israel having influence makes the u.s. not guilty for its crimes, or like the u.s. can’t have overlapping interests that would lead it to support israel on its own (which it obviously fucking does)
So yeah when the FM of Iran points out a very obvious way israel heavily influences the u.s. i’m gonna be obnoxious about it, and also keep blocking nerds who think im wrong
I honestly don’t know what conversation you’re referring to, but I get the impression you’re straw-manning whatever it was and just trying to have the same argument again.
Look, I’ll engage and in good faith.
Israel is more than a vassal. You’re right. To simply say Israel is a vassal is too simplistic about the relationship.
Israel definitely is a client-state. But so is Egypt, Jordan, etc. And they don’t get the relationship that Israel gets, so yes you’re right. There’s something here that requires analysis.
Now to acknowledge some truths on the other side of this argument. Israel does serve and has served US interests in an extremely powerful way since at least the 1960s by slicing the Arab world in half, separating Egypt from Syria and thereby firmly disrupting the pan-Arabism that was a real threat to US power in the 1970s.
It continues to perform this function today, very obviously so given the way the Abraham accords are the center-piece of the US alliance structure for the region despite the Abraham accords being against the interests of every single one of the Arab client states.
But let’s attack that idea as well.
Why do many US elites want to cut Ukraine loose, even though Ukraine is performing a similar function in Eastern Europe? Why has opposition to the genocide in Gaza been criminalized throughout the west while you can still more or less freely read and write think pieces about the Russian point of view in that war? Mearsheimer and Tucker Carlson were only criticized for the crime of not being anti-Russian. Meanwhile grandmothers are arrested en-masse for saying you shouldn’t bomb Palestinian children. So Israel isn’t simply a US military project. Something else is afoot. You’re right.
One major difference, the difference that you point at, is the prominence and reach of the Zionist lobby in the USA.
It makes sense that you identify this as the critical difference.
But did the Zionist lobby transform the US or did it transform Israel?
Israel in the 1960s and 1970s was a very different state. It was still colonial, genocidal, and apartheid to be sure but it had a different politics and ideology. It was far more secular and it even embraced ideas that were basically socialist. The kibbutz is a synthesis of Zionism and socialist communalism.
The American zionist lobby exported US millennialism to Israel. The American Zionist lobby with its strict and patriarchal conservative and capitalist morality is the synthesis of radically political Evangelical Christianity and Zionism.
It’s not a foreign ideology. The Zionist lobby are not foreigners. Almost all of them are American. Israel does contribute cash to the project but overwhelmingly the financial power of the American Zionist lobby comes from American Zionists, and the large majority of American Zionists are politically radical Evangelical Christians of a distinctly American flavor.
The American Zionist lobby didn’t take over the USA. It rose in prominence within the USA alongside the rise of politically radical Evangelical Christianity, and as it rose to power in the US, it also swept away the leftist (genocidal, settler colonial, ethno-fascist, but still economically-populist and thereby leftist) “Labor Zionism”.
The US-Israeli alliance began in the 1970s and in the 1970s it was more an alliance of convenience. The US wanted to break pan-Arabism, and Israel wanted to break their neighbors.
Politically radical evangelical Christianity became a dominant force in the USA really in the 1980s and has become more dominant ever since. The American Zionist lobby is simply part of that movement.
Every other US client-state in the Middle East is just an alliance of convenience. The US knows that Saudi Arabia fucking hate them. They know that the people of Egypt don’t want them, that almost all Jordanians (regular Jordanians) hate Israel.
Just look at the way Bahrainis were cheering as Iran bombed Bahrain.
The Arab client-states are not reliable partners. The only thing really holding the Arab states in that alliance is that without US backing, that collection of absolute monarchies would one by one meet the fate of the Romanovs. Those despots are only with the US because they don’t have any other option.
But Israel.
It is a very special relationship with Israel. There has been a profound ideological fusion between the state of Israel and the USA.
The Zionist Lobby are almost all Americans. It would be incorrect as a matter of fact to say it is a foreign influence because they almost all are not foreigners. The money is overwhelmingly coming from domestic sources. The funds Israel provides are small compared to the funds provided by very wealthy Americans.
And it’s also incorrect as a matter of simple fact to say that the Zionist lobby is even Jewish.
It’s not. The very large majority of them are politically radical evangelical Christian Americans.
The relationship between the US and Israel is so special because it’s eschatological. That eschatology very very very directly has its origins in politically radical evangelical Christianity.
You just do not see this eschatological world view in Judaism before the 2000s. Like, you’d need to really find some fringe figures within Judaism to believe in this end of times shit. But now it’s mainstream. It’s dominant in Israel. It’s the ideology that drives the state.
The American Zionist lobby represents the ideological takeover of Israel by politically radical evangelical Christianity.
The Zionist lobby absolutely does have immense power within the USA, it’s extremely powerful. But it’s not a foreign influence. It’s the overwhelmingly an expression the eschatology of politically radical evangelical Christian’s and the synthesis of Zionism and that eschatology has absolutely stripped away almost all ideological features that Zionism had in, say, the 1980s and replaced them with the State Ideology of the USA.
You’re absolutely right that saying Israel is merely a vassal is an incomplete analysis.
To really explain the state of Israel today and to explain the absolute devotion of the western ruling elite towards the Zionist project, you need to incorporate the eschatology.
Israel isn’t just a proxy for US military power. It’s a proxy for all Americas beliefs about itself.
Settler colonialism. Apartheid segregation. Rabid violence sitting beside wanton consumerism. Genocide as its founding act, of downright constitutional importance. The aggrieved siege mentality while they inflict suffering on the world.
Israel is America, and it became American by its ideological and eschatological capture by politically radical Americans who believe that all of those things are glorious. The Zionist lobby is an expression of US ideology that has very little relationship to the “Labor Zionism” that defined Israel prior to it’s ideological capture and fusion with the US eschatological right.
GOOD comment
I honestly don’t know what conversation you’re referring to, but I get the impression you’re straw-manning whatever it was and just trying to have the same argument again
No im just being a shithead over the FM of Iran saying things I was attacked for because i’m obnoxious and enjoy pointing out hypocrisy when it concerns peoples attitudes towards me
I appreciate the good faith write up but the tl;(did read) for me there is that i’m right but you’re kinda implying I’m wrong hinging on zionism being home brewed american ideology and not “a foreign influence” like im particularly concerned by the foreignness of it. I mention israel being its own country because that’s what separates criticism of israel from conspiracies of Jewish control, it’s not just an ethnic group, it’s a literal nation state with its own intelligence apparatus and military, its motivations and influence should be analyzed and criticized.
I actually expressly do not wish to continue arguing about this because i’m about to grill some tofu. Thank you for your genuine attempt to educate me though, I am at present not mad
Actually I was less attacking the foreign-ness of it. I was more attacking the Jewish-ness of it.
The Zionist lobby in the USA is not actually very Jewish in the sense that theyre mostly evangelical Christian’s.
When you say ZOG it gives Elders of Zion vibes, which was perhaps an unfair assumption by me but well fuck saying “ZOG” does have a certain history. If you see me sporting Germanic runes tattooed on my chest it wouldn’t be your fault for making some assumptions.
The belief that an identifiably Jewish group are driving American politics just isn’t true. The Zionist lobby is a major power center driving American politics but the Zionist lobby isn’t all that Jewish, it’s a subordinate element of the eschatological evangelical right which can very accurately be described as a white evangelical Christian force. That’s what the Zionist lobby is. It’s an expression of a white evangelical settler colonialist racist apartheid eschatological Christian and deeply American politics.
Ah, I see, well I don’t see zionism as representative of judaism either
Well alright then, I accept I made an assumption.
Because I did. Because you were throwing “ZOG” around so I don’t think that’s on me but ok I accept I made an assumption there, but maybe using that acronym really is like insisting you’re into Nordic religion and it’s sun symbolism. True enough for some folk for sure but still not my fault.
Careful, now; you keep talking like that and you’ll have a JIDF article written calling you a vicious antisemite.
