Choosing not to reproduce because it’s unethical to force more humans to live as indentured slaves under capitalism on this dying hellworld… is basically the opposite of fascism?
That you also consider antinatalism cringe though makes me think you either just don’t understand what any of these words mean, or that you’re an Overton centrist who’s just one little push away from becoming/owning a trad wife and feeding your offspring into the meat grinder to make billionaires happy.
How do you figure you have the authority to force someone into existence? Like, for real. To me this feels like the most selfish act possible. I can’t see any reasons that would stand up to scrutiny to have children other than “cause I wanna”. And yes. It’s forcing them. It’s not “a gift”, since a gift can be declined.
I know several new dads who would be absolutely livid at the thought of someone calling them “selfish” for what they’re currently submitting themselves to XD
A lot of us had shitty parents and find it easy to transpose those traits onto all parents. But there at least as many parents out there for whom it’s absolutely the largest sacrifice they’ve made in their entire lives. It’s them pouring all of their collected love, knowledge, and material means onto someone else so that they don’t leave this Earth having only taken from it.
And if their kids grow up anything like me, they’ll be grateful for that choice and happy to be alive.
Ok but this kind of doesn’t answer my question… Also to the point of “don’t leave this Earth having only taken from it” yeah, it’s even worse, cause now there is a whole new person that will also take from the earth.
And if their kids grow up anything like me, they’ll be grateful for that choice and happy to be alive.
And if they don’t, they might not be. That’s kind of my point. A HUGE gamble like that is totally okay to take for yourself but not for someone else, without their consent.
This is like having a tantrum about vegans because you think vegans want to stop you from eating animal products because they think it’s wrong.
Antinatalism is a personal philosophy, nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. I have chosen not to procreate because my experiences have brought me to the conclusion that it is unethical.
You can go ahead and make more people or torture animals if you want, I’m not part of that. Neither the vegans nor the antinatalists can actually stop you, combined we’re probably only a few million worldwide. We’re judging you for your choices, but that’s about it.
Is it some kind of psychosis? Like how do you just decide words mean something completely different and flat out keep refusing to listen, learn and change your view after numerous people politely keep pointing out the definitions you’ve decided upon, are objectively wrong?
Lol wait did you actually take the time to read through all my comments? Seems like that ego you’re so proud of abandoning got a little bruised, buddy.
I know reading comprehension can be hard, so I’ll spell it out more explicitly for you. Like you, I’m trying my best to be vegan. And like you, I neither have nor want children. The difference between us is that I don’t think everyone who hasn’t given up hope on humanity is a terrible person.
Again, if it’s your personal choice to not reproduce, that’s totally fine, and I won’t try to convince you otherwise.
As soon as you start telling other people though that producing offspring is inherently unethical and they’re a bad, selfish person for making that decision, you’re no different than the so-called “pro-life” groups, telling people that they’re morally flawed and the cause of all the problems in the world because you don’t agree with the choice they made about their reproductive system.
The options with antinatalism are:
No one reproduces and humans go extinct.
Someone has to make a decision regarding who can “ethically” reproduce to maintain some stable population level.
Option 1 is unacceptable to me because it means giving up, and at that point we might as well nuke everything to speed up the process of ending the suffering that is life. And if that’s the outlook you have, I genuinely feel bad for you.
Option 2 is unacceptable because — surprise surprise — that’s just eugenics dressed up as caring about the environment or something. And when you and your loved ones are part of groups that have historically been forcibly sterilized at best and sent to death camps at worst, you tend to have a negative opinion about any philosophy that ultimately labels some groups as unworthy of existing.
Option 1 is unacceptable to me because it means giving up, and at that point we might as well nuke everything to speed up the process of ending the suffering that is life. And if that’s the outlook you have, I genuinely feel bad for you.
The more extreme form of antinatalism, efilism, actually advocates for sterilizing the earth to prevent animal suffering as well.
Maybe I am, because no one’s given me a better explanation of it than “having kids bad”
Just pulling straight from Wikipedia, “Antinatalism or anti-natalism is the philosophical value judgment that procreation is unethical or unjustifiable” and I can’t see how that doesn’t lead to the conclusion that the planet is better off with humans being extinct.
Every argument I’ve heard boils down to “it’s easier just to die than to fix the problems that make life miserable, so we should all just die.” If you want to give up, go ahead. I personally don’t want to ever have kids, but I still want the world to be better for those who do.
They’re just plain arguing in bad faith. Persuasion, debate, and spreading ideology online are definitely an attempt to control others, just because it’s not physically coercive yet doesn’t make it exempt from any moral examination. They are seeking influence without accountability.
We are humanity, and we have barely begun to get silly. Arrogance is in our blood, ambition is our food and drink, and hubris is the air we breathe. We’ve been lurching from one disaster to the next since the ice age, clinging to this rock by our fingernails every time, and laughing the whole way.
We are not space elves. We are not wise. We do almost nothing but stumble, but we’re laughing the whole way. These antinatalists just don’t get the joke.
Option 1 being “unacceptable” to you is scary und giving me the ick. What happens in your world when people don’t want kids anymore? Forced breeding programs?
Sorry, not at all how I meant that. It’s being told not to have children that is scary and gives me the ick.
I don’t want the world to get to a point where no one wants to have kids anymore. I recognize that a lot of things happening now make it really hard to stay optimistic, but we — humanity — are the only ones who can do anything to change it for the better. And given the choice between “we might as well give up and just die out as soon as possible” and “we need to do everything we can to give the next generation the best chance of surviving and thriving we can”, I’ll always choose the latter
It’s going to be a bit difficult to keep ‘surviving and thriving’ without food or water.
But hey, 2030 is a few years off still, so how about an even closer apocalypse? Did you know there’s now a chance for a double blue ocean event in the next ten months?
How do you plan to fix this? You gonna throw babies at it? Or are you just going to do what you’ve been conditioned to and ignore all the disadvantaged people struggling and dying, till the apocalypse is at your door and your children are affected?
Choosing not to reproduce because it’s unethical to force more humans to live as indentured slaves under capitalism on this dying hellworld… is basically the opposite of fascism?
That you also consider antinatalism cringe though makes me think you either just don’t understand what any of these words mean, or that you’re an Overton centrist who’s just one little push away from becoming/owning a trad wife and feeding your offspring into the meat grinder to make billionaires happy.
I’m an anarchist and a trans woman but ok
Antinatalism is ecofascist eugenicist bullshit
thank you
From one anarchist trans woman to another:
How do you figure you have the authority to force someone into existence? Like, for real. To me this feels like the most selfish act possible. I can’t see any reasons that would stand up to scrutiny to have children other than “cause I wanna”. And yes. It’s forcing them. It’s not “a gift”, since a gift can be declined.
I know several new dads who would be absolutely livid at the thought of someone calling them “selfish” for what they’re currently submitting themselves to XD
A lot of us had shitty parents and find it easy to transpose those traits onto all parents. But there at least as many parents out there for whom it’s absolutely the largest sacrifice they’ve made in their entire lives. It’s them pouring all of their collected love, knowledge, and material means onto someone else so that they don’t leave this Earth having only taken from it.
And if their kids grow up anything like me, they’ll be grateful for that choice and happy to be alive.
Ok but this kind of doesn’t answer my question… Also to the point of “don’t leave this Earth having only taken from it” yeah, it’s even worse, cause now there is a whole new person that will also take from the earth.
And if they don’t, they might not be. That’s kind of my point. A HUGE gamble like that is totally okay to take for yourself but not for someone else, without their consent.
I already didn’t like it, but you’ve talked me into liking it even less. Nevermind the angry arrow clickers.
What specifically don’t you like about it?
You need to look some of those words up.
If you choose not to reproduce, that’s fine, regardless of your reasons. It’s no one’s business.
But explain to me how you pick and choose who can or “should” reproduce without sounding like a eugenics enthusiast
@I_Has_A_Hat@lemmy.world your comments don’t show up on the blahaj end, sorry I didn’t see them until now.
I can understand that argument a lot more than the ones that come across as very defeatist and nihilistic, thank you.
This is like having a tantrum about vegans because you think vegans want to stop you from eating animal products because they think it’s wrong.
Antinatalism is a personal philosophy, nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. I have chosen not to procreate because my experiences have brought me to the conclusion that it is unethical.
You can go ahead and make more people or torture animals if you want, I’m not part of that. Neither the vegans nor the antinatalists can actually stop you, combined we’re probably only a few million worldwide. We’re judging you for your choices, but that’s about it.
I do neither of those things. Scroll through my comment history and find something else to judge me for, bud.
Is it some kind of psychosis? Like how do you just decide words mean something completely different and flat out keep refusing to listen, learn and change your view after numerous people politely keep pointing out the definitions you’ve decided upon, are objectively wrong?
Lol wait did you actually take the time to read through all my comments? Seems like that ego you’re so proud of abandoning got a little bruised, buddy.
I know reading comprehension can be hard, so I’ll spell it out more explicitly for you. Like you, I’m trying my best to be vegan. And like you, I neither have nor want children. The difference between us is that I don’t think everyone who hasn’t given up hope on humanity is a terrible person.
Well, no one should. Phew, that was easy.
Good thing that has nothing to do with antinatalism then.
Again, if it’s your personal choice to not reproduce, that’s totally fine, and I won’t try to convince you otherwise.
As soon as you start telling other people though that producing offspring is inherently unethical and they’re a bad, selfish person for making that decision, you’re no different than the so-called “pro-life” groups, telling people that they’re morally flawed and the cause of all the problems in the world because you don’t agree with the choice they made about their reproductive system.
The options with antinatalism are:
Option 1 is unacceptable to me because it means giving up, and at that point we might as well nuke everything to speed up the process of ending the suffering that is life. And if that’s the outlook you have, I genuinely feel bad for you.
Option 2 is unacceptable because — surprise surprise — that’s just eugenics dressed up as caring about the environment or something. And when you and your loved ones are part of groups that have historically been forcibly sterilized at best and sent to death camps at worst, you tend to have a negative opinion about any philosophy that ultimately labels some groups as unworthy of existing.
The more extreme form of antinatalism, efilism, actually advocates for sterilizing the earth to prevent animal suffering as well.
You seem extremely confused.
Antinatalism has precisely nothing to do with preventing people from procreating.
Maybe I am, because no one’s given me a better explanation of it than “having kids bad”
Just pulling straight from Wikipedia, “Antinatalism or anti-natalism is the philosophical value judgment that procreation is unethical or unjustifiable” and I can’t see how that doesn’t lead to the conclusion that the planet is better off with humans being extinct.
Every argument I’ve heard boils down to “it’s easier just to die than to fix the problems that make life miserable, so we should all just die.” If you want to give up, go ahead. I personally don’t want to ever have kids, but I still want the world to be better for those who do.
They’re just plain arguing in bad faith. Persuasion, debate, and spreading ideology online are definitely an attempt to control others, just because it’s not physically coercive yet doesn’t make it exempt from any moral examination. They are seeking influence without accountability.
We are humanity, and we have barely begun to get silly. Arrogance is in our blood, ambition is our food and drink, and hubris is the air we breathe. We’ve been lurching from one disaster to the next since the ice age, clinging to this rock by our fingernails every time, and laughing the whole way.
We are not space elves. We are not wise. We do almost nothing but stumble, but we’re laughing the whole way. These antinatalists just don’t get the joke.
Option 1 being “unacceptable” to you is scary und giving me the ick. What happens in your world when people don’t want kids anymore? Forced breeding programs?
Sorry, not at all how I meant that. It’s being told not to have children that is scary and gives me the ick.
I don’t want the world to get to a point where no one wants to have kids anymore. I recognize that a lot of things happening now make it really hard to stay optimistic, but we — humanity — are the only ones who can do anything to change it for the better. And given the choice between “we might as well give up and just die out as soon as possible” and “we need to do everything we can to give the next generation the best chance of surviving and thriving we can”, I’ll always choose the latter
It’s going to be a bit difficult to keep ‘surviving and thriving’ without food or water.
But hey, 2030 is a few years off still, so how about an even closer apocalypse? Did you know there’s now a chance for a double blue ocean event in the next ten months?
How do you plan to fix this? You gonna throw babies at it? Or are you just going to do what you’ve been conditioned to and ignore all the disadvantaged people struggling and dying, till the apocalypse is at your door and your children are affected?
…if projected at others (I feel like that’s the missing qualifier from your statement)