What’s up with this straight up pro-china and pro-russia stuff on Lemmy lately?
It’s not even praising the people of China and Russia, but rather their gov directly.
Obviously the states have problems, and the EU to a lesser degree, but they at least have some human rights.
Is this some kind of organized disinformation campaign?
Russia first invaded Ukraine in 2014 ran a proxy war in the interim and has failed to complete it’s military objectives after nearly four years of total war?
Russia has over a million casualties.
Is this what winning looks like?
Lol, OP is mad they got their post removed for claiming that Covid was a Chinese bioweapon.
OP was banned from Memes@lemmy.ml for trying to push the “Chinese spy balloons” thing and posted this thread to cry about it.
Others have given great answers, but the short-answer is that it’s not a “disinformation campaign,” nor is it organized. It’s because Lemmy has a lot of leftists, especially Marxist-Leninists, and MLs both support AES (“Actually Existing Socialism”), like the PRC, and critically support capitalist countries forced into allying with them against the Global North’s imperialism.
In terms of their net impacts on the world, the US and EU far outweigh the evils of Russia. Russia is certainly flawed, but unlike the US and EU Russia doesn’t rely on expropriating vast amounts of wealth from the Global South, sanctioning, couping, or genociding those who go against imperialism. It isn’t because Russia is some moral paragon, but because they simply lack the means to be imperialist, they are boxxed in by the west and lack the financial capital to rely on expropriation of wealth.
As for the PRC, it gets far more support, because it’s the leading socialist country. 800 million people were lifted from poverty, and it’s rapidly improving. Even when the west runs propaganda against them, like the COVID lab leak theory or the Chinese spy balloon hysteria, the PRC is being widely supported by the Global South as the PRC is providing a genuine alternative to the genocidal west.
If you (or anyone else) want an introduction to Marxism-Leninism, here’s my Read Theory, Darn It! introductory reading guide!
Russia is literally conducting an imperialist invasion of Ukraine right now…
I can’t stand this shit when fake leftists defend authoritarian, imperialist states because they oppose the west.
Just because Russia “opposes” the west doesn’t make it any better than them.
The Russo-Ukrainian War is about forcing Ukraine to be neutral to NATO, and resolving the conflict between Kiev and the Donetsk and Luhanks People’s Republics that requested Russian support after the Minsk agreements fell through due to Ukraine failing to keep up their end of the bargain. It isn’t an imperialist war, the goal is not expropriation of wealth, it’s to keep NATO out of the main path by which Russia has historically been invaded from the ground, such as in World War II by Nazi Germany.
Russia is not worthy of critical support just because “west bad.” Russia can’t imperialize countries like the west has. It tried, back when Putin requested to join NATO 2 decades ago, but Russia was denied because the Nationalists in Russia didn’t want to open their markets up to foreign plunder like in the 90s. As a consequence, Russia is forced to ally with the anti-imperialist countries, largely made up of countries in the Global South and socialist countries. The Sahel States, for example, are turning to Russia and the PRC as an alternative to western plunder, because Russia physically cannot imperialize in the same way the west does. It fundamentally lacks the ability to export vast amounts of capital and outsource production.
If you’re going to call leftists “fake,” then you should at least do the due dilligence to familiarize yourself with the Marxist analysis of imperialism.
The Minsk agreement has nothing to do with the formation of the Donetsk “republic”.
Though Russia respecting the territorial integrity of Ukraine was a big part of it nobody seems to remember.
Yanukovych refused to sign a free trade agreement with the EU that the Ukrainian Parliament had ratified, leading to the largest democratic protests in Europe in decades. When he was ousted from power, Russia realized they were losing their puppet, invaded Crimea and fully backed fringe separatist movements providing money, arms and Russian regulars on “vacation” to generate a pretext for the 2014 full scale invasion.
it’s to keep NATO out of the main path by which Russia has historically been invaded
NATO is a voluntary defensive alliance. The only reason it has expanded is because Russia continually tries to invade the former Soviet republics.
If eastern Europe wasn’t terrified of Russia, they wouldn’t be applying to join.
Putin requested to join NATO 2
Sure Putin at some point allegedly expressed interest in joining NATO. Who the fuck knows what happened but he also allegedly refused to apply for membership.
Russia didn’t want to open their markets up to foreign plunder like in the 90s
Do you have any idea what the market is like in Russia? Have you ever even visited? It’s a state run by robber barons with palaces and yachts all over the world. The west couldn’t plunder what Putin and his cronies have already robbed.
Look at what China managed to build since the 90s and look at the failed state of Russia after decades of Putin’s rule.
The Sahel States, for example, are turning to Russia and the PRC as an alternative to western plunder
You mean the gold mines Wagner was running in Africa to plunder for the Russian war chest?
It fundamentally lacks the ability to export vast amounts of capital and outsource production.
You acknowledge Russia wants to, but you admit the only reason they don’t, is that they can’t? So we’re in some sort of agreement here.
familiarize yourself with the Marxist analysis of imperialism.
Attempting to expand your countries power through military action is the textbook definition of imperialism.
Marx (correctly) views imperialism as an inevitability of a capitalist system due to its drive to expand and accumulate capital, but he didn’t define the word.
What’s most disappointing is how little respect is given to democratic movements by authoritarians posing as socialists. People completely ignore the voices of Ukrainians fighting to defend their homeland.
The western trade agreement required privatization of safety nets and general austerity politics, the Russian loans did not. The Russian loans had more respect for the sovereignty of Ukraine than the western loans, hence the decisuon of Yanukovych. The nationalists in the west couped the government with the assistance of the west, installing the Banderite nationalist regime, while the ethnic Russians in Donetsk and Luhansk seceded after seeing their president get couped.
NATO is an alliance of imperialist states that has been led by Nazis like Adolf Heusinger. Its sole purpose is to perpetuate imperialism, and encircle countries that oppose having their markets plundered by the west. Russia is not trying to “continually invade” countries.
Putin wanted to join NATO because Putin wanted Russia to be able to imperialize the global south like the west does. Pretty clear-cut.
Yes, Russia is a deeply flawed nationalist country owned by capitalists. The PRC is socialist, which is why it has achieved far more in the same span, and did not collapse into capitalism like Russia did.
The Sahel States are a coalition of anti-imperialist countries that are nationalizing their industry and focusing more on trading finished goods than raw materials. This was impossible when the west was imperializing them, Russia is not imperializing the Sahel States because they can’t.
Yes, Russia is a deeply flawed nationalist country that, by circumstance, is forced to align with progressive, anti-imperialist movements and socialist countries. Nobody is saying “Russia is a perfect country that is ideologically pure,” that’s the point of critical support.
Russia is not trying to expand their power through conquest, their goal is to demillitarize Ukraine and ensure its neutrality with NATO, as Ukraine is the best front to stage a war on Russia.
Marx analyzed imperialism in its very early stages, it was Lenin that expanded that theory into the Marxist canon and thoroughly established and analyzed it. There are practically no Marxists that reject Lenin’s analysis of imperialism.
I do listen to Ukrainians, support for the war is falling sharply, and the ethnic Russians in LPR and DPR have wanted independence from Ukraine for over a decade. The best thing for the Ukrainian working class is a quick surrender of the 4 oblasts, NATO neutrality, and a prompt socialist revolution to oust the Banderite regime.
I do listen to Ukrainians
Except when they democratically decide on closer ties with the EU?
I want to focus on your belief that NATO started this war and that Russia is somehow defending itself because it’s inherently contradictory. It requires you to believe the following:
- The Ukrainian Parliament under Yanukovych was not democratic so couldn’t ratify the trade agreement, but Yanukovych was.
- The Maidan protests were staged by nearly 800,000 NATO drones, but the much smaller Donetsk separatist movement was legitimate and wasn’t a Russian imperialist front.
Can you speak more to those ideas?
NATO has been pressing eastward despite making agreements with Russia that it would not. From the beginning, NATO was formed as an anti-communist alliance, and even after the Soviet Union fell it has been a key tool in encircling Russia to get them to open up their markets to foreign plunder, a tried and true strategy used elsewhere.
Yanukovych was correct in not pursuing the western requirement of austerity politics and becoming a puppet of western countries. NATO used this as an opportunity to overthrow Yanukovych and install a far-right Banderite regime. When the Donbass region wanted to secede, Kiev responded with ethnic repression in the form of language suppression and outright shelling, shelling which accelerated in the weeks leading up to Russian invasion.
With a far-right regime that is violently Russophobic and is cozying up to the number 1 anti-Russian millitary alliance in the world right on their borders, Russia decided to invade when diplomacy fell through. Russia does not give a shit about extraction from Ukraine. They are not in this for the plunder. Russia purely wants Ukraine to promise NATO neutrality, and stop the ethnic cleansing in Donetsk and Luhansk.
This is the bog-standard communist take. Orgs like The Party for Socialism and Liberation have released statements, same as FRSO’s statement. You are unfamiliar with communism yet are trying to use it against itself.
Did you respond to the correct post? This isn’t relevant to what I asked.
The Ukrainian Parliament under Yanukovych was not democratic so couldn’t ratify the trade agreement
It was a fast moving process. Unclear when IMF interference demands for austerity were known. Russia did make a much better offer than EU, and Yanukovych was right to prefer it.
The Maidan protests were staged by nearly 800,000 NATO drones
While there is an obvious pull among the young to get western values, CIA/US state propaganda operations to fabricate that opinion, was done purely for nazification and warmongering purposes. The idiocy of the public makes them resort to their programing. Not informed pragmatic study of all alternatives.
the much smaller Donetsk separatist movement was legitimate and wasn’t a Russian imperialist front.
The nazi rulership, installed by US, immediately massacred opposition in Odessa, removed Russian language rights, and wanted to seize Crimean port out of Russian lease. Ukrainian naziism has become the new western liberal values, but most people don’t like nazis, and especially not their “subhuman labelled” targets for extermination.
Your previous post was dishonest as well.
Unclear when IMF interference demands for austerity were known.
I think you’re conflating two separate issues. The IMF was not involved in trade talks between the EU and Ukraine. It was when Ukraine was seeking loans but Yanukovych didn’t reject to ratify the EU bill because of the IMF.
CIA/US state propaganda operations to fabricate that opinion, was done purely for nazification and warmongering purposes
To what end goal?
Is it so hard to believe that given the choice between closer ties to the EU or a gay hating, poverty stricken state run by robber barons and oligarchs, Ukrainians might have preferred the EU?
The idiocy of the public makes them resort to their programing.
This isn’t a fair argument, I could say the same thing about you, and you could say the same about me. How can we find truth when we both believe the other is simply regurgitating programming from some shadowy propaganda source.
I’ll ask this: Do you feel yourself entrenched in these views or are you actually open to changing them through discussion?
immediately massacred opposition in Odessa,
This didn’t happen though.
removed Russian language rights
This also didn’t happen.
People completely ignore the voices of Ukrainians fighting to defend their homeland.
Which Ukrainians?
- The oligarchs running the state?
- The Banderite fascists?
- The eastern & southern Ukrainians, who, after the Maidan coup, declared independence from an unelected government, and were subsequently terrorized by the Banderites for nearly a decade, with tacit and overt support from the Ukrainian and US governments?
- The western Ukrainians who want the war to end?
- The men being kidnapped off the streets and pushed to the front lines against their will?
Previously: If not for the US/NATO, this war wouldn’t have happened in the first place.Which Russians?
- The oligarchs running the state?
- The Wagner fascists?
- The Russian democrats and anti-fascists who, after opposing Putin’ss unelected government, were subsequently terrorized by the FSB for nearly a decade before being imprisoned or killed?
- The Eastern Russians who want the war to end?
- The men being kidnapped off the streets and pushed to the front lines against their will?
See how easy it is to write this bullshit? And mine is actually true.
You’ve rejected western propaganda, which is fair, but then rather than engaging with reality critically, you’ve just bought into Russian propaganda without a second thought.
What’s your point, that Ukrainians are an undifferentiated mass of Euro stans like our government and media portray them? Because that’s bullshit. We’re not talking about Russians, we’re talking about Ukrainians, including those with linguistic, cultural, familial, and business ties to Russia.
you’ve just bought into Russian propaganda without a second thought.
Do you think I’m watching RT and reading Pravda? Almost everything I’ve read or heard has come from Western sources. Almost all the links in my previous comment are Western sources.
Russia is literally conducting an imperialist invasion of Ukraine right now…
The most prolific invader in the world - NATO - did a coup in Ukraine, tried to bring weapons and personnel to Russia’s most important border near Russia’s most populated parts, and has been conducting terror attacks against the Russian population.
The rest of the world has every right to defend against NATO, so you either have a good explanation for what else Russia could have done in this regard, or your criticism of Russia is not serious.Just because Russia “opposes” the west doesn’t make it any better than them.
The fact that Russia hasn’t done anything nearly as bad as things like the invasion of Iraq - let alone the genocide of Palestine - does make Russia better.
The most prolific invader in the world - NATO - did a coup in Ukraine
You mean when the largest european democratic movement in decades ousted a Russian puppet who refused to pass a bill ratified by the Ukrainian Parliament?
tried to bring weapons and personnel to Russia’s most important border near Russia’s most populated parts
This never happened.
defend against NATO,
NATO is a defensive alliance. The closest it’s ever gotten to starting a war was Afghanistan and not every member participated.
And before you wind up the next “gotcha”, there are lots of dog shit imperialist countries in NATO, but we’re discussing the organization itself here.
The fact that Russia hasn’t done anything nearly as bad as things like the invasion of Iraq
Georgia, Chechnya, Syria, Afghanistan?
And also this is your moral foundation? It doesn’t matter what crimes Russia is committing so long as they never commit more crimes than the US?
EDIT: People should stop claiming that the gang of states that are currently engaging in at least one genocide, keep invading everywhere, doing coups is a ‘defensive alliance’.
You mean when the largest european democratic movement in decades ousted a Russian puppet
This is silly.
That’s quite a fantasy you have concocted there.Firstly, just describing any pro-NATO movement, i.e. a movement that supports literal colonialism, as ‘democratic’ is extremely silly. Especially when such movements are known to be created by NATO and include literal politicians and open nazis. Going to also note that you are fine with the perpetual dictator Zelenskiy.
Secondly, everybody is familiar with things like the leaked correspondence between USian representatives in Ukraine picking who gets to be in what position in the new government weeks before the completion of the coup, as well as them bragging about how much money they spent on subjugating Ukraine.
Thirdly, you can’t even name what was supposedly so bad about Yanukovich. It’s pretty obvious that his sin - in your eyes - was that he did not sell Ukraine off to NATO.who refused to pass a bill ratified by the Ukrainian Parliament?
Oh no. An elected president vetoed a bill that was being protested against by the same people that you love being in power.
Mind sharing why an elected president vetoing a bill justifies NATO completing yet another coup? Sounds like your standards are very much not applied uniformly.This never happened.
This is, again, silly.
Do you want to tell us that Ukraine was not trying to join NATO in the years 2014-2022, and that no relevant claims were made by NATO?NATO is a defensive alliance.
This is also very very silly.
Nobody can seriously claim that invasions of Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, Palestine (complete with a very obvious genocide), Libya, Vietnam, Laos, Korea, etc. - all done by NATO - were ‘defensive’.
The only ‘defensive’ thing about NATO is how it protects its members from facing justice for centuries of ongoing colonialism, including for settler-colonial and other genocides.The closest it’s ever gotten to starting a war was Afghanistan and not every member participated.
Between Iraq and Afghanistan, there is not a single de jure member of NATO that did not participate. And those were very obviously wars started by NATO, with NATO invading those countries.
There is also the fact that not every glorified USian province sending troops neither makes those non-NATO actions, nor negates other forms of complicity in the activities.And before you wind up the next “gotcha”, there are lots of dog shit imperialist countries in NATO, but we’re discussing the organization itself here.
If every member of this organisation is a ‘dog-shit imperialist state’ - and they all are, - then we can conclude that there is no defense that can be levied for the organisation itself that is the most prolific invader in the world and that is currently engaging in at least one high-profile genocide.
Georgia, Chechnya, Syria, Afghanistan?
This is also silly.
Russia did not invade Afghanistan and Syria. Russia literally helped Syria against your invasion forces and DAESH (which has since become yet another de facto part of NATO, if it ever wasn’t).
Russia fought against the separatist in Chechnya with NATO’s support. The part of the Russian government that supported the separation of Chechnya were shelled with tanks by pro-NATO forces.
Georgia was literally the one that attacked the Ossetian separatists. This is doubly silly, considering that you support Chechen separatists.And also this is your moral foundation? It doesn’t matter what crimes Russia is committing so long as they never commit more crimes than the US?
Again, the rest of the world has every right to defend itself from NATO. Look at what you did to Iraq, Syria, Libya, Afghanistan, Palestine. On what grounds should the rest of the world just roll over for you?
NATO is a defensive alliance.
- The Intercept, 2021: Meet NATO, the Dangerous “Defensive” Alliance Trying to Run the World
- CounterPunch, 2022: NATO is Not a Defensive Alliance
- Noam Chomsky, 2023: NATO “most violent, aggressive alliance in the world”
- Thomas Fazi, 2024: NATO: 75 years of war, unprovoked aggressions and state-sponsored terrorism
- Gabriel Rockhill, 2020: The U.S. Did Not Defeat Fascism in WWII, It Discretely Internationalized It
The closest it’s ever gotten to starting a war was Afghanistan and not every member participated.
- Previously: NATO didn’t stop a genocide [in Yugoslavia]; it aided one[1][2][3].
- Previously: NATO […] destroyed Libya.
Right. I agree that NATO tacitly supports US imperialism but you’re also conflating the actions of the US with NATO as a whole. Turkey did not invade Afghanistan for example.
Also the idea that NATO caused the Bosnian Genocide is laughable. The bombing is the only reason it stopped. Your argument is literally “those boys, women and children were CIA assets, trust me bro”
But regardless, I think we’re not actually engaging correctly with each other’s points here. Let’s refocus with some simple facts.
- NATO did not attack Russia.
- Russia invaded Ukraine.
Do Ukrainians have a right to defend themselves from Russian imperial aggression?
Right. I agree that NATO tacitly supports US imperialism
Not ‘tacitly’, and not just the US’ imperialism.
You are blatantly trying to absolve the glorified USian provinces of imperialism and colonialism by downplaying their complicity and willingness in subjecting the world to these horrors.but you’re also conflating the actions of the US with NATO as a whole.
You are, again, trying to downplay the actions of the US’ glorified provinces that is the rest of NATO, and distance them from their own actions.
Turkey did not invade Afghanistan for example.
Turkey did invade Afghanistan. And other places, together with the rest of NATO.
Also the idea that NATO caused the Bosnian Genocide is laughable.
Given that you keep being demonstrated to be wrong about everything, you should stop laughing about things that people who are consistently correct tell you.
NATO did not attack Russia.
The most prolific invader in the world that is engaging in at least one obvious and high-profile genocide doing a coup in a country that neighbours another country’s most populated areas and then attempting to bring weapons and personnel to the relevant border is, in fact, an act of aggression, and the rest of the world has every right to defend itself against NATO.
Russia invaded Ukraine.
As a response to NATO’s aggression.
Notably, you are yet to explain what Russia should have done, despite you being prompted to.
Do Ukrainians have a right to defend themselves from Russian imperial aggression?
Did Germans have a right to defend themselves from the Allies’ ‘imperial aggression’ in 1930-1940s?
Also, going to note that you are completely fine with terror attacks conducted by your empire, including against the Russian population which you deny any right to defend itself against you.
The rest of the world has a right to defend itself against NATO. The population of the most prolific invader in the world that is currently engaging in at least one high-profile genocide is not the priority in this situation (unless, again, you think that the rest of the world should roll over for you).Let’s look at this from another perspective.
Russia has completely failed it’s “special military operation” in Ukraine and is bogged down in a war of attrition with a nation that is not in NATO.
NATO countries are supplying a trickle of arms to Ukraine, but without a single NATO boot on the ground, without a single aircraft carrier, Russia has been stopped in its tracks and has failed to complete the majority of it’s military objectives, having even lost actual Russian territory to Ukrainian counter offensives.
Clearly Russia would not stand a chance if NATO decided to invade them.
So that begs the question, if you believe NATO wants to invade Russia, and it’s clear Russia couldn’t stop them, why haven’t they?
Edit to add: Oh, that one was already in my previous comment. Sorry for repeating myself. Here’s a talk by Parenti to summarize.
Also the idea that NATO caused the Bosnian Genocide is laughable. The bombing is the only reason it stopped.
Tell me you didn’t engage with the material I provided without telling me you didn’t engage with the material I provided. Here’s another: Michael Parenti » To Kill a Nation: The Attack on Yugoslavia
I engaged with it. It’s saying the Serbs were responding to a proxy war initiated by the CIA when they were literally just exterminating Bosnians.
You can give me your summary but I’m not reading any more dubious links on the matter, especially when link bashing is being used as a rhetoric device to prevent your argument being challenged.
And again:
- NATO did not attack Russia
- Russia invaded Ukraine
Do Ukrainians have a right to defend themselves from Russian imperialism?
“Was I brainwashed by Western propaganda?”
“No, only shithole commie countries like China have propaganda”
Do you folks not know that two things can be bad at the same time
Do you people get given a pre-opproved list of thought terminating cliches phrases? Because you always say that exact phrase, word for word, even when it doesn’t remotely apply to the conversation at hand, as is the case here.
Ok, just in case there’s a chance for you to be good faith. The above comment was a reply to a post about there being a lot of pro china and pro Russia propaganda being on Lemmy. It implied that the only way you can be against china and/or Russia is if you’ve fallen for western propaganda. This is a very clear fallacy, as being critical of china and/or Russia does not imply that you aren’t also critical of the west. There’s no conspiracy going on where everyone agreed to comment the same stuff, but if the same fallacy gets repeated over and over, multiple people will independently see it for what it is and call it out.
It implied
Ok, so you’re just putting words in their mouth.
This is a very clear fallacy,
Which they didn’t make, by your own admition. You just strawmanned them.
multiple people will independently see it for what it is and call it out.
Using the exact same stilted phrasing, word for word, every time?
You’re not buying any of this yourself, are you?
Wow, you sure stopped pretending you care about logical fallacies real quickly
Removed by mod
Funnily enough they almost always live in western democracies where they don’t need to fear reprisals for criticizing their government, something they wouldn’t dare do in China
bold assertion to make while pretty much every western ‘democracy’ is cracking down on people protesting for palestine
Removed by mod
Time for the weekly question as to why there are anti-imperialists on the anti-imperialist platform from a redditor who joined less than a month ago
I am so baffled since years that (mostly) americans think if you are against us (or its imperialism) u automatically need to be pro China and vice versa. I really can’t get why you guys always need to bootlick one or the other government. Why can’t you not fight for a better system, why do u always fight for a better oppressor?!
Really grinds my gears.
The PRC is the better system. It has a socialist market economy, one that works for the people, and doesn’t depend on imperialism. China isn’t an oppressor. Moreover, it is usually non-westerners that are pro-China, as they are the ones directly experiencing western imperialism and watching China focus on mutual development and cooperation.
You have no reason to reduce the logic of why one would support the PRC down to simply being “anti-west,” if you ask anyone pro-China about why they are, we can give you nuanced and complete reasoning for doing so. By caricaturing the argument of those you disagree with, you quite literally strawman them.
The PRC is the better system. […] Moreover, it is usually non-westerners that are pro-China,
May I ask where your from?
You have no reason to reduce the logic of why one would support the PRC down to simply being “anti-west,” if you ask anyone pro-China about why they are, we can give you nuanced and complete reasoning for doing so. By caricaturing the argument of those you disagree with, you quite literally strawman them.
The comment I replied to litterally reduced their support of China to being anti-western opression and implies those are the same thing.
Not a strawman at all
I’ve stated elsewhere that I’m a USian, I live in the US Empire. That doesn’t take away from my points, though, polls on approval of the PRC are much higher in the global south than they are in the global north. I’m in the minority as a supporter of the PRC in the US, and it’s largely because I’m a Marxist-Leninist that I am.
Further, no, being anti-imperialist does not mean that is the only reason to support the PRC. You strawmanned their point (correct the pronouns you used).
Yeah have at it.
That’s exactly my point. People see their own system is bad, they check that china/real existing socialism is regarded as the opposite to the system they consider bad - they have valid points but also pink-red glasses which makes them overlook problems.
My point is, that we have 3 world powers, China, us and Russia, and ALL of them act in hegemonial fashion.
Yes, us is currently the worst, but NONE of them fight for the working class, ALL of them fight to keep the ones rich, who are rich and the ones powerful, which are powerful in their respective system.
If you consider yourself Marxist Leninist, may read a little more Marx and a little less Lenin. What China does is NOT what Marx sees as communist, it doesn’t even hold up to his imagination of socialism.
No, this is deeply unserious. What actually happens is people like me notice the problems surrounding us, read Marx, Engels, Lenin, and other Marxist writers, see what the PRC is managing to achieve thanks to its socialist system, and then learn to check media critically, looking at the sources, motivations, etc in order to actually see what’s going on. Then we keep reading theory and try to start organizing. Your characterization of leftists as simply supporting the opposite of what is going on is a mischaracterization, one you have not once provided proof for, yet is your entire argument.
Secondly, only the US is the world hegemon. It is the world’s largest empire, and has full control of institutions like NATO and the IMF, which it wields in its favor to secure imperialism. Russia is not a hegemon, it has fallen far from its heights as the Soviet Union. The PRC isn’t a hegemon either, it is overtaking the US but it doesn’t depend on imperialism, millitary or financial domination.
Russia is capitalist, correct, and the US is too, but they stand at odds due to the US being the world Empire and Russia being encircled by it. In the PRC, the working class is the one in charge!
If you consider yourself Marxist Leninist, may read a little more Marx and a little less Lenin. What China does is NOT what Marx sees as communist, it doesn’t even hold up to his imagination of socialism.
This is absolutely peak western chauvanism, undue superiority and self-confidence while knowing nothing about how much of Marx, Engels, and Lenin I’ve read. From Marx alone, not at all counting the dozens of other Marxists I have read:
And I am about a third of the way through Capital: Volume 2. You have no idea what I have studied, and think you can just mouth off as though you know what I know better than I do. It’s peak western chauvanism. I’ve elaborated many times elsewhere on China’s system, but at its core, the proletariat is in power, and public property is the principle aspect of the economy. The large firms and key industries are publicly owned, and as the medium firms grow the state exerts more control and gradually sublimates them into the public sector. This gradual approach to sublimating property once the dictatorship of the proletariat has been established is right out of the communist manifesto. China is in the early developing stage of socialism, and is continuing to develop and socialize the economy.
For further reading:
-
Qiao Collective’s Introductory Socialism with Chinese Characteristics Study Guide
-
My “Read Theory, Darn It!” Introductory Marxist-Leninist Reading Guide
-
Has China Turned to Capitalism? Reflections on the Transition from Capitalism to Socialism by Domenico Losurdo
-
China Has Billionaires by Roderic Day
Do some reading if you want to use how much we’ve read as a cudgel.
~I’m not who you were replying to before.~
I agree that the chinese mixed market model is better, and that the US sucks ass, but I have one question about your claims.
PRC, the working class is the one in charge!
can you explain to me how that can be true while the government is unelected and visibly does authoritarian stuff such as censorship, violent repression of various undesireables and supression of independent worker’s unions?
If you consider yourself Marxist Leninist, may read a little more Marx and a little less Lenin. What China does is NOT what Marx sees as communist, it doesn’t even hold up to his imagination of socialism.
It does hold up to Marx’s imagination of a “lower phase” of socialism, heading in the direction of higher phases and then ultimately communism. This has been a continuous understand of the necessarily long process among Marxists, because we aren’t utopians imagining a fantastical overnight transformation: https://files.catbox.moe/6n2qll.avif
9·9 days agohis
Check pronouns. They/Them.
Thanks :) Sometimes gendering in foreign languages is still hard for me
Your comment reminded me of this Rosa quote:
“The German government‑socialists may shout that the rule of the Bolsheviks is a caricature of the dictatorship of the proletariat. If it was or is, then only for the reason that it is a product of the conduct of the German proletariat, conduct which was a caricature of socialist class struggle.”
I live in the US, I don’t see the reason to demonize its enemies on the other side of the planet when my class enemies are right here running the US government and its associated political parties.
I don’t see reason to demonize people at all not Americans not Chinese.
We should be in solidarity with everyone from the working class, no matter his or her place of birth.
Fighting for the working class always means fighting against oppressors.
In the historical period we live in us is the worst of them, but that doesn’t make other ones good.
Freedom of minorities, press, and assembly are under atack nearly everywhere, in the us in the EU, in China and in Russia - but those are tools the working class needs to build a better system.
Bravo, you checked that the us government system has major flaws, may critically look at there enemies, for they are not even close to the ideals they pretend following.
Demonizing doesn’t help, but idolizing also doesn’t.
May try to fight for the people, not for the powerfull.
There is no system existing on this planet at the moment which will do that for you. Simping for one or the other oppressor doesn’t cut it, even if some are better then others, you need to fight for the people, not the powerful.
The way to fight for the people isn’t by going along with 100% of US propaganda about its state enemies.
Do you think that I should be taking a German fundamentalist ‘on a mission from god’ against china and communism as an authority on the oppression there when he doesn’t even speak the language and routinely fabricates evidence?
No?
Edit: don’t see your point. Its not like I am citing Donald trump…
I was referring to Adrian zenz, that guy seems to pop up in literally every western accusation about China at this point.
The most recent example being him as a ‘fluent’ mandarin speaker hearing the word “满勤奖” or ‘full attendance award’ from a recording in a factory and intentionally misrepresenting it as “Xinjiang.” That was then the basis for then claiming that there was evidence of forced labor in Xinjiang.
Ok… Not me
Its not like I am citing Donald trump…
Who are you citing then? Which accusations from the West against China do you not believe? Are there any?
The working class of the PRC is the class in power! This is chauvanism, why on Earth do you get to say that the working class needs to overthrow the socialist system they support? This is a deeply western viewpoint you have, the Chinese working class already overthrew their oppressors last century.
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What’s your point, exactly? Is this just an unrelated jab at the DPRK? Are you saying people can only support their governments if they are brainwashed? Brainwashing doesn’t even exist, it was a concept invented by the west to explain why citizens of socialist countries support their system, which they failed to replicate with MKUltra:
The term “brainwashing” was first used in English by Edward Hunter in 1950 to describe how the Chinese government appeared to make people cooperate with them during the Korean War.
In 1979, John D. Marks wrote in his book The Search for the Manchurian Candidate that until the MKUltra program was effectively terminated in 1963, the agency’s researchers had found no reliable way to brainwash another person, as all experiments at some stage always ended in either amnesia or catatonia, making any operational use impossible.
According to the most recent report (2024), people in China have overwhelmingly positive views of their political system. 92% of people say that democracy is important to them, 79% say that their country is democratic, 91% say that the government serves the interests of most people (rather than a small group), and 85% say all people have equal rights before the law. Furthermore, China outperforms the US and most European countries on these indicators – in fact, it has some of the strongest results in the world. The figure below compares China’s results to those from the US, France and Britain. These results may help explain the high levels of satisfaction with government reported by the Ash Center.
You don’t appear to have any point supported by data, just failed Cold War conspiracy theories.
Haha, where did you get brainwashing from? I would trust polling from the notorious big-brother state of China about as much as from Russia or NK, that is to say, not much at all.
China is literally the only hope humanity has to survive climate change at this point and if you’re not aware of that you’re ignorant, sorry
Don’t want to start an argument, genuinely asking, how is china the “only hope”? If we look at certain european countries, or even canada, brazil or the drc, they run on a much larger percentage of renewables than china. China is still running 60% coal.
As for tech, china does have a lead in many technologies, but it’s not like they’re the only ones that can make good products in those categories.
I have literally never in my life heard of a country make an ambitious climate goal and then actually achieve it other than china. China is the only country actually investing substantial money into all that renewable energy research while western countries cling to fossil fuel profits (almost like capitalism affords incredibly wealthy oil companies inordinate political and economic authority, huh).
There’s literally a fucking meme of California vs China talking about high speed rail, after like 20 years California had built shit and China’s built over 25000 miles of it. I’m pretty sure here in present year that’s 46000 miles of it.
China is stockpiling resources and building infrastructure to plan for the absolute devastation that is going to be wrought on human society over the next few decades. What the fuck has literally anyone else done? If any country in earth is going to be resilient enough to weather the crop failures and super storms we’re destined for and, god fucking i hope, be in a position to help anyone else (and with an ideological basis that would impel them to without expecting a century of debt bondage in return) it’s going to be China.
As a Chinese person it’s actually really refreshing to not be inundated with western propaganda. Here’s some examples that come to mind:
The US quietly admitting the “Spy Balloon” did no spying several months and millions of dollars later.
People are actually moving into “ghost cities” as it pre-emptively neutralized a housing crisis before it began
China’s social credit system is actually extremely benign and fragmented while aiming to target businesses and businessmen, tracking bankruptcies, scams and reneged deals and so on.
But you’ll get people too propagandized to accept truth even if, for example, all the sources you provide are from reliable Western media
Obviously the states have problems, and the EU to a lesser degree, but they at least have some human rights.
A daily reminder that westerners don’t consider non-westerners human.
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the curse being western imperialism
What’s up with this straight up pro-china and pro-russia stuff on Lemmy lately?
🌍🧑🚀🔫🧑🚀 Always has been. https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Lemmy#History
Obviously the states have problems, and the EU to a lesser degree, but they at least have some human rights.
The EU is sometimes worse than China and some parts of the US are often worse than Russia. The US (both parties) and the EU have been aiding & abetting a genocide in Palestine.
Is this some kind of organized disinformation campaign?
It’s not organized and it’s not disinformation. Those are coming from inside the house.
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a large part of the population lives in poverty, has terrible work conditions,
Just don’t count anyone outside the empire as human and your argument makes sense.
and suffers from persecutions for various reasons to a level that is way above the worst you can get in the EU (and probably the US too).
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The position of Germany on pro-Palestine activism is insufferable, that’s true, but the EU has 26 other members.
This is the recent one from the UK. It can be done for all 26 others easily too.
Also constantly bringing back colonialism as an argument doesn’t make much sense.
Because people in Africa and the Middle East aren’t still being colonized by the West?
Anyway, do you want to compare it with China and Russia that notoriously love who manifest ideas contrary to the regime’s views?
Pray tell what happened to Jullian Assange? Why the entire Western media gleefully lying about the genocide in Gaza? Propaganda on Western levels is unheard of worldwide.
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Only Germany has a stronger stance on Israel, probably due to the large presence of Jews in the country.
You are misinformed. There hasn’t been a large Jewish population in Germany since the Holocaust, and attributing Germany’s support for Israel to an imagined one sounds, frankly, a bit antisemitic.
There are many EU countries with more Jews per capita than Germany. Less than 0.2% of Germany’s population is Jewish, and less than 1% of Jews in the world live in Germany. 60% of Jews in Germany live in a single city (Berlin). Over 80% speak Russian, having immigrated there from former soviet states.
German politicians often say that, due to the Holocaust, support for Israel’s security is part of Germany’s “reason of state”; they tend to avoid discussing the Zionist view that Jews choosing to live in Germany today should also really move to Israel.
The West is guilty of regime changes in some places, that’s true,
Man, you sure love going “yes that’s true and I have no counter point, but I’m going to declare that it doesn’t count”
What are you talking about? There is a constant coverage on Gaza even with updates of the kids killed by Israel.
What do you believe the current death count in Gaza is?
The US persecuted Assange, not the EU. The rest was pure politics, because no country would cause a diplomatic incident over Assange.
So the EU obeys the US which is authoritarian?
What are you talking about? There is a constant coverage on Gaza even with updates of the kids killed by Israel.
https://lemmy.ml/c/ManufacturingConsent
Pray tell if you believe Hamas raped anyone on October 7 by the way.
Only Germany has a stronger stance on Israel, probably due to the large presence of Jews in the country.
Sib, you’re gonna need to sit down before I tell you this…
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The position of Germany on pro-Palestine activism is insufferable, that’s true, but the EU has 26 other members.
You know, the argument of “they aren’t repressive, so long as you just ignore all the ways that they are!” applies just as much to China. You’re purely begging the question. I like that you even got it wrong which fucking country it was.
a large part of the population lives in poverty,
Nevermind the rate at which that proportion is shrinking.
Wikipedia is not a source.
We’re doing this again?
The PRC needs to stop comitting atrocities against the Uyghur and other Turkic muslims
Good thing China wasn’t and isn’t doing that, unless you consider jailing of US-backed radical Salafi terrorists to be an atrocity.
- https://lemmy.ml/comment/18748811
- https://lemmy.ml/comment/14839342
- https://lemmy.ml/comment/18270034
.
and Tibettans
I’m pretty sure virtually all of the Tibetan people are happy to no longer be suffering under theocratic feudalism. Happy to no longer be illiterate serfs and slaves living in depredation under a god-king. I doubt many of them are sad that CIA asset Dalai “suck my tongue” Lama is in exile.[1]
and stop brutalising and denying political self determination to the people of Hong Kong
The UK’s 99 year lease to subjugate the people of Hong Kong ended, a lease which had been forced upon Imperial China at gunpoint during the century of humiliation. Hong Kong reintegration after the lease expired was a foregone conclusion. The last minute, US-backed attempt at color revolution failed. It was the so-called “revolutionaries” who brought the brutality, by the way.
irrelevant tangents
How people in the imperial core are propagandized is not an irrelevant tangent.
You accept Five Eyes corporate media uncritically because you don’t understand media, which I tried to explain, but you decided that it was an irrelevant tangent.
you don’t honestly engage at all
I don’t have all day; I’ll address two.
Xinjiang/The Uyghurs
The US tried to foment division in China by funding and organizing terrorist cells in Xinjiang, and once those efforts failed, it concocted and promoted a genocide narrative. Antony Blinken is still pushing this slop, just a few weeks ago.
- The Xinjiang Genocide Allegations Are Unjustified
- The Uyghur Human Rights Project is a product of the National Endowment for Democracy, which is the American government’s main regime change NGO.
- Uyghur genocide allegations
- American Debunks All Major Western Propaganda on Uyghurs and Xinjiang
- US-Funded Uyghur Activists Train as Soldiers of Empire
- A Reddit AMA Claiming To Be A Uyghur Quickly Exposes A CIA Asset Slandering China
.
The blueprint of regime change operationsWe see here for example the evolution of public opinion in regards to China. In 2019, the ‘Uyghur genocide’ was broken by the media (Buzzfeed, of all outlets). In this story, we saw the machine I described up until now move in real time. Suddenly, newspapers, TV, websites were all flooded with stories about the ‘genocide’, all day, every day. People whom we’d never heard of before were brought in as experts — Adrian Zenz, to name just one; a man who does not even speak a word of Chinese.
Organizations were suddenly becoming very active and important. The World Uyghur Congress, a very serious-sounding NGO, is actually an NED Front operating out of Germany […]. From their official website, they declare themselves to be the sole legitimate representative of all Uyghurs — presumably not having asked Uyghurs in Xinjiang what they thought about that.
The WUC also has ties to the Grey Wolves, a fascist paramilitary group in Turkey, through the father of their founder, Isa Yusuf Alptekin.
Documents came out from NGOs to further legitimize the media reporting. This is how a report from the very professional-sounding China Human Rights Defenders (CHRD) came to exist. They claimed ‘up to 1.3 million’ Uyghurs were imprisoned in camps. What they didn’t say was how they got this number: they interviewed a total of 10 people from rural Xinjiang and asked them to estimate how many people might have been taken away. They then extrapolated the guesstimates they got and arrived at the 1.3 million figure.
Sanctions were enacted against China — Xinjiang cotton for example had trouble finding buyers after Western companies were pressured into boycotting it. Instead of helping fight against the purported genocide, this act actually made life more difficult for the people of Xinjiang who depend on this trade for their livelihood (as we all do depend on our skills to make a livelihood).
Any attempt China made to defend itself was met with more suspicion. They invited a UN delegation which was blocked by the US. The delegation eventually made it there, but three years later. The Arab League also visited Xinjiang and actually commended China on their policies — aimed at reducing terrorism through education and social integration, not through bombing like we tend to do in the West.
Tiananmen riots
- The Tian’anmen Square ‘Massacre’: The West’s Most Persuasive, Most Pervasive Lie.
- 1989 Tian’anmen Square riots
- A Note on the Tiananmen Protests
- Images from Tiananmen 1989 the West never shows (NSFW / CW: violence and death)
- Tank Man video footage. Tiananmen Square, Beijing, 1989
- How psy-ops warriors fooled me about Tiananmen Square: a warning
It’s not a football match. You don’t have to pick a side and defend it no matter what.
It’s not; I’m not; and neither do you.
Edit to add: I’m certainly not picking “our” side. I mean, have you seen our side? The side that’s providing political and material support for an actual genocide as we speak?
- List of Atrocities committed by US authorities
- A Detailed Chronological List of US Interventions, Invasions, Destabilzations, and Assistance to Oppressive Regimes (ending in 2002)
- The U.S. Did Not Defeat Fascism in WWII, It Discretely Internationalized It
- Shock therapy (economics)
- World Incarceration Rates If Every U.S. State Were A Country
- Infographic: US military presence around the world The US controls about 750 bases in at least 80 countries worldwide and spends more on its military than the next 10 countries combined.
- Are We The Baddies?
- Michael Parenti: Africa is Rich
Some examples:
Repression, criticism, and situations? Telling choice of words.
The crimes of the US/European empires - both historial and ongoing - are unparalleled… To reduce them to those terms you would be doing genocide denial.
China making the BBC slightly more inconvenient to access is far worse than exterminating an entire continent of people in a centuries long colonial project.
Making TERF island’s transphobic brainworm journalism less accessible:
While the support to Israel is undeniable and the EU members supported the US in unnecessary wars multiple times, it’s hard to read “the EU is sometimes worse than China” without questioning what you are talking about.
“While it’s true that EU has and continues to do things far worse than anything China has done, how can you possibly say that the EU is sometimes worse than China!”
Its impossible to read this without coming to conclusion that you fundamentally don’t consider non-westerners human, except when they can be used as a cudgel against their enemies. Imagine trying to claim that we should consider China’s treatment of Muslims worse than the countries currently engaging in a modern Holocaust against Muslims.
And Tiananmen Square was forty years ago. If you actually listened all of the things that the EU has done since then that were as bad or worse, you would be writing a novel. You would need to have a Tiananmen square massacre every day for a decade just to equal the amount of people the West killed in Iraq alone.
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What a fucking vile thing to say. In over a decade of genocide accusations against China, The West hasn’t been able to produce a single example of even one Uyghur being killed, even though Xinjiang is perfectly accessible and anyone can go there to find perfectly normal cities. Even Wikipedia had to rename it’s “Uyghur Genocide” page because they couldn’t actually find enough evidence.
Meanwhile, Gaza is a closed off death camp where journalists are being shot on sight, with the full support of both the institutions and individuals who are making the Uyghur genocide accusations in the first place. None the less, we see daily videos of mass death, with even western estimates for total dead in the hundreds of thousands after less than two years.
You don’t care about Muslim lives, they are not human to you, you only care about them as a cudgel against the West’s enemies. This is made undeniably clear by the fact that you try to claim China killing zero Muslims in “definitely worse” than the West (and it is the whole West) exterminating an entire nation of two million people.
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Even if you criticise based on support of foreign wars and quality of life the EU and us still come out better than China and russia.
No, they come out much worse. Oh right, you don’t consider non-westerners to be human.
They support some fucking crazy regimes
Imagine how completely shameless and dishonest to try and make this claim as a contrast to the EU and USA.
most of them still live far below the EU and us in standard of living.
And that’s what matters, in the end. Virtue is defined by how much wealth you can extract out of the rest of the world for the benifit of your own country. Wealth is the mark of virtue. Rich countries are good, poor countries are bad.
You have the politics of a nineteenth century Englishman.
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You mean you tried to respond but realized you didn’t actually have anything to respond with, so you’re going to start trolling.
There is nothing of substance to respond to even if I wanted. All you’ve done is disagree and I’m not wasting my time going through history with a bot who thinks tiananmen square was just a man standing in front of a tank or thinks NATO “forced” Russia to invade Ukraine. So yeah, enjoy this thread it was made for you.
There is nothing of substance to respond to even if I wanted.
There’s plenty of substance, you just can’t actually refute it so you’re going to pretend it’s not there. You’ve already decided as a matter of faith that you are right about anything, so any argument that might suggest otherwise has to be ignored.
bot who thinks tiananmen square was just a man standing in front of a tank hinks NATO “forced” Russia to invade Ukraine.
Oh, we’re just pulling completely baseless strawmen out of our assholes then? Well why should I waste my time with you when you’re a supporter of Adolf Hitler who thinks the Holocaust was a good thing?
So yeah, enjoy this thread it was made for you.
“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”
― Jean-Paul Sartre
No, this is just untrue for both accounts.
- War
The PRC and RF have largely been peaceful over the last few decades, the most notable exception being, of course, the Russo-Ukrainian War. On the other hand, the West has been on an extermination campaign of genocide in Palestine, destroyed Iraq, bombed Iran, destroyed Afghanistan, supported coups all over South America and Africa, and much, much more. If you extend beyond a few decadea you also can include the attempted genocide of Korea and Vietnam.
- Quality of Life
Not only is quality of life in the PRC higher than some EU states as well as US, the EU and US both enjoy the quality of life they do because of imperialism. That’s like pointing to a landlord and saying they have a higher quality of life than their tenant, and using that as a point in favor of the landlord and against the tenant. Imperialism is the reason why the Global North consumes far more of production than it creates, and what drives the Global North to sanction, coup, invade, destroy, and genocide the Global South.
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I extended beyond the last 2 decades, I just kept it to 2 decades initially because it’s the most relevant for our discussion. The PRC has not “gone to war” with pretty much everyone around them, with the exception of Vietnam, in the last 50 years. They do not support terrorist groups, and they have not slaughtered millions of their own people. They do not strip their population of basic freedoms, the opposite is true, and they do not force Han supremacy, they have higher rates of minority representation than the west does. They are not imperialist, they do not use financial capital to dominate the global south and expropriate vast amounts of wealth, nor is Chinese culture “soulless.”
Your whole comment is entirely uncited, and veers into being wildly racist by calling Chinese culture soulless.
As for quality of life, I didn’t expect you to go fully mask-off and justify imperialism, but holy shit you just outright called it an “irrelevant excuse.” If I point out that Elon Musk has a better quality of life than I do because of vast amounts of wealth stolen from the working class, that’s somehow irrelevant and Elon is good in your eyes? This is monstrous behavior. Do some self-crit and see how the west plunders the global south.
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Again, everything you listed is uncited, and your claims are racist in nature, like calling Chinese culture “soulless” because it’s now socialist and Mao banned foot-binding. Yes, I do quite like the democracy graph, it shows that the PRC is ahead of the west in democracy. The PRC has done nowhere near the atrocities of the west. It doesn’t imperialize, commit genocide, or otherwise plunder the world for its own benefit.
You have no sources because you’re genuinely a fascist that defends western imperialism unironically.
Wars China has been in, in the last 50 years:
- Sino-Vietnamese War
From your own link:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Soviet_border_conflict
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathu_La_and_Cho_La_clashes
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960–61_campaign_at_the_China–Burma_border
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chamdo
Some are outside the 50 year mark by a decade or two but it shows in the last 50 years theyve pretty much attacked every single country around them.
Some are outside the 50 year mark
Then don’t include them, you dishonest fuck.
it shows in the last 50 years theyve pretty much attacked every single country around them.
You literally had to include things from outside the time period to pad the numbers and you still only got to five. Now do the US and EUs wars for the same time period.
Some are outside the 50 year mark by a decade or two but it shows in the last 50 years
I wish I lived in your world where time is non-linear.
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Yeah, how dare those tankies value the lives of non-westerners as if they were human
Oh so you’re valuing the lives of the Uyghurs and other minorities in concentration camps. You’re really valuing the millions of Russian soldiers that die fighting a war of aggression. You value so highly all the innocent people in Gulags which are basically concentration camps too. I see now how highly you value those people, my bad.
Oh so you’re valuing the lives of the Uyghurs and other minorities in concentration camps.
In over a decade of genocide accusations against China, The West hasn’t been able to produce a single example of even one Uyghur being killed, even though Xinjiang is perfectly accessible and anyone can go there to find perfectly normal cities. Even Wikipedia had to rename it’s “Uyghur Genocide” page because they couldn’t actually find enough evidence.
Meanwhile, Gaza is a closed off death camp where journalists are being shot on sight, with the full support of both the institutions and individuals who are making the Uyghur genocide accusations in the first place. None the less, we see daily videos of mass death, with even western estimates for total dead in the hundreds of thousands after less than two years.
You don’t care about Muslim lives, they are not human to you, you only care about them as a cudgel against the West’s enemies. This is made undeniably clear by the fact that you try to claim China killing zero Muslims is comparable to the West exterminating an entire nation.
You’re really valuing the millions of Russian soldiers that die fighting a war of aggression.
Millions? You’re just pulling make believe numbers out of your ass now, unlike the actually confirmed millions killed in Western Wars of aggression. And it’s because non-western lives aren’t actually real to you; thousands, millions, tens of millions, whatever - it’s all just fictional to you, like the size of armies in fantasy books.
You value so highly all the innocent people in Gulags
What the fuck are you talking about? Please tell me you’re not trying to have a take on this while being so monumentally ignorant of even the most basic facts of the matter.
The West hasn’t been able to produce a single example of even one Uyghur being killed
What’s happening to them is worse than getting killed.
even though Xinjiang is perfectly accessible and anyone can go there to find perfectly normal cities
Ok, you’re completely delusional, should have figured from the start. Please watch some footage of journalists that actually went there.
All your blathering about Palestine is nice whataboutism, but nothing more. I’m strongly opposed to the Israeli government as well, not that it matters in this discussion. It’s possible to have a more nuanced view than “east good, west bad” even though that might be too difficult for you to comprehend.
Millions?
Millions is probably incorrect indeed, the estimate is over 1 million. What does it matter though? The one who doesn’t seem to care about their lives (apart from Putin, obviously) is you, because every single one is one too many.
What the fuck are you talking about? Please tell me you’re not trying to have a take on this while being so monumentally ignorant of even the most basic facts of the matter.
I’m talking about innocent people being held in Gulags and in many cases dying there. Reading comprehension is difficult for you it seems. I’m curious though, do you think Gulags are not real or that only guilty people are sent there? Even if they were guilty, do you think a civilised nation should have concentration camps?
the estimate is over 1 million.
That’s complete horseshit. Funny that you go on about state propaganda and yet you believe obvious Western propaganda.What’s happening to them is worse than getting killed.
Nice deflection. “Nobody has been killed in Xinjiang. - Well, ackhually that’s because what’s happening is even worse than death!” Like what? Uhhh, stuff I guess.
What’s happening to them is worse than getting killed.
What a vile little worm you are. And of course, because you don’t actually consider them human, you don’t care if they actually agree with this; you’re not actually going to try present the argument that the Uyghurs themselves would, if you went to Xinjiang and asked them, would prefer to be in Gaza. You’re just going to make the declaration for them, because you need to to excuse the holocaust going on in Gaza.
Ok, you’re completely delusional, should have figured from the start. Please watch some footage of journalists that actually went there.
Please, present this footage that shows that the people of Xinjiang are worse off than the people in Gaza…
All your blathering about Palestine is nice whataboutism, but nothing more.
You can’t actually defend the idea that the West’s crimes aren’t as bad as China, so you’re just going to declare that it’s “not allowed” to even mention the West’s crimes. Even you realise your position is untenable if people actually bring up counter points, so you’re going to pretend that some how it’s “cheating” for them to do so.
I’m strongly opposed to the Israeli government as well, not that it matters in this discussion.
Of course it fucking matters. What the fuck are you on about?
It’s possible to have a more nuanced view than “east good, west bad” even though that might be too difficult for you to comprehend.
You’re just assuming that, because you are only capable of seeing it in terms of Good Guys and Bad Guys, then I must be too, just in the other direction. This is a lazy strawman doesn’t actually follow from anything that was said.
Millions is probably incorrect indeed
Not incorrect: a lie that you told.
the estimate is over 1 million.
“The estimate”? From who?
What does it matter though?
Yeah, what does it matter? It’s not like theyre real humans with lives or anything. because non-western lives aren’t actually real to you; thousands, millions, tens of millions, whatever - it’s all just fictional to you, like the size of armies in fantasy books.
The one who doesn’t seem to care about their live is you, because every single one is one too many.
Tell me again how every Muslim in Xinjiang would be better off dead, how the genocide in Gaza is just prattle and whataboutism, and how numbers of dead don’t matter. Funny how “every single one is to many” doesn’t apply to the West, they can kill by the million and you’ll forgive them.
I’m talking about innocent people being held in Gulags and in many cases dying there. Reading comprehension is difficult for you it seems. I’m curious though, do you think Gulags are not real or that only guilty people are sent there? Even if they were guilty, do you think a civilised nation should have concentration camps?
Oh my God… Please tell me this is a bit.
question, why do you think the rest of us should believe the work of the German guy ‘on a mission from god’ against China and communism when he doesn’t even speak the language.
also why can’t they find another person to research this if it’s really as serious as you say lmao
What’s happening to them is worse than getting killed.
You were better off not responding lol
What’s happening to them is worse than getting killed.
You are a diseased person in mind and soul.
Even the most damning, counterfactual, and unsupported claims about China’s treatment of Uyghurs in Xinjiang are nothing more than a fraction of the verifiable, livestreamed barbarism that US/israel have been unleashing on Palestinians in Gaza for decades.
lol, ”millions of Russian soldiers”, the entire personnel of the Russian military is about two million people, do you think they sent literally every single soldier in the Russian military to Ukraine? Gulags? What the fuck are you talking about, is everything you know about Russia from Cold War era propaganda?
I conceded that millions was indeed an exaggeration. If you don’t know what Gulags are or doubt their existence, I guess it’s clear everything you know about Russia is from its current state propaganda.
I conceded that millions was indeed an exaggeration
You mean a lie, you conceded that it was a lie.
If you don’t know what Gulags are or doubt their existence, I guess it’s clear everything you know about Russia is from its current state propaganda.
Where the fuck did you get your information from?
The USSR did have prisons, yes. I don’t think that’s out of the ordinary for a state to have. Secondly, and you don’t seem to get this, the USSR is dead and gone, as much as we all would rather have it here with us today (though KPRF membership is skyrocketing and trends do seem in favor of at least Russia turning back to socialism).
I know gulags existed like 70 years ago, you seem to think they still exist.
the gulag system ended in 1960. you know less than your average street dog.
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I don’t block anyone, there needs to be a voice of reason countering these misguided soulds, so thanks for doing your part.
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In our view it’s not that western liberals are victims of propaganda, but that propaganda grants them permission to be continue being ignorant:
Let us look at a specific example. A claim like “There’s cultural genocide of Uyghurs in Xinjiang” is simply unreal to most Westerners, close to pure gibberish. The words really refer to existing entities and geographies, but Westerners aren’t familiar with them. The actual content of the utterance as it spills out is no more complex or nuanced than “China Bad,” and the elementary mistakes people make when they write out statements of “solidarity” make that much clear. This is not a complaint that these people have not studied China enough — there’s no reason to expect them to study China, and retrospectively I think to some extent it was a mistake to personally have spent so much time trying to teach them. It’s instead an acknowledgment that they are eagerly wielding the accusation like a club, that they are in reality unconcerned with its truth-content, because it serves a social purpose.
What is this social purpose? Westerners want to believe that other places are worse off, exactly how Americans and Canadians perennially flatter themselves by attacking each others’ decaying health-care systems, or how a divorcee might fantasize that their ex-lover’s blooming love-life is secretly miserable. This kind of “crab mentality” is actually a sophisticated coping mechanism suitable for an environment in which no other course of action seems viable. Cognitive dissonance, the kind that eventually spurs one into becoming intolerant of the status quo and into action, is initially unpleasant and scary for everybody. In this way, we can begin to understand the benefit that “victims” of propaganda derive from carelessly “spreading awareness.” Their efforts feed an ambient propaganda haze of controversy and scandal and wariness that suffocates any painful optimism (or jealousy) and ensuing sense of duty one might otherwise feel from a casual glance at the amazing things happening elsewhere. People aren’t “falling” for atrocity propaganda; they’re eagerly seeking it out, like a soothing balm.
From the essay Masses, Elites and Rebels: the Theory of “Brainwashing”
Given the political leanings of Lemmy’s lead developers, and relatedly the whole reason why Lemmy started development in the first place, it should not be surprising to anyone that many Lemmy users have since the very beginning of Lemmy’s existence had stances that could be called, in a word, “pro-Russia” or “pro-China”.
The problem arises when people who don’t hold these views look at them only through their own myopic biases, where, rather than genuinely interrogating why people might hold these attitudes, they instead more readily believe that a social media platform that most people have never even heard of is actually crawling with paid actors trying to influence public opinion.
No, to understand my own views on Russia, you need to understand my views on Atlanticism; to understand my views on Atlanticism, you need to understand my views on class, among other things. None of that comes across clearly in a one-liner or a four-panel meme. I’m sure I could discuss it in a more fitting space provided I’m not too drained of energy from having stayed up until five in the morning for the umpteenth time.
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The word is sliver, and there are reasons to view Russia in a positive light.
Thanks for correcting me on the spelling.
Claiming Russia of all nations is anti-imperialist though is such a stupid take it’s not even ridiculous anymore.
Russia both doesn’t have the financial capital nor the available subjects to imperialize, the west has far more financial capital and already has nearly the entirety of the global south under its thumb. Because of this, Russia is incentivized, for its own survival, to oppose the global north and its imperialism.
Russia is the most imperialist state currently in existence. No other nation has destroyed so many languages and cultures in its colonies. There is no other state that uses state run propaganda to extend its power in other nations to the extent that Russia does. No other state that uses its secret service to kill dissidents abroad. There is no other state that currently wages wars to extend its territory (apart from Israel, but it lacks other defining characteristics of an imperialist state). Obviously, the US is imperialist too and many European states used to be, but that in no way substantiates the claim that is Russia is anti-imperialist.
There is no other state that uses state run propaganda to extend its power in other nations to the extent that Russia does.
Holy shit. Westerners really are the most propagandized people on earth.
I assume you’ve heard the joke about the KGB agent and the CIA agent.
The majority of what you said is just outright false, such as the claims of Russia destroying languages and cultures (unless you mean Tsarist Russia, but that would be making a highly racist argument that relies on the idea that no matter what economic system Russians are evil), but the biggest issue seems to be that you don’t understand what imperialism is, which is why I linked the definition.
When leftists speak of imperialism, we mean the system by which the developed capitalist countries export capital to the global south, financially dominating them and using this to expropriate vast sums of wealth. This is why African countries tend to be under-developed, it’s intentionally so, and countries like France, Germany, the UK, and of course the US especially are evil for this. Russia doesn’t have the ability to do this because it lacks the financial capital to do so, and because the west already has everyone under their thumb. The west are like landlords and the global south their tenants.
Oh cool, so you made your own definition of Imperialism to fit your world view. Hilarious.
the claims of Russia destroying languages and cultures
This is demonstratably true and I’m not talking about Tsarist Russia.
I’m not disagreeing with your critique of France and its treatment of its former colonies and the same goes for other European countries. None of that has anything to do with Russia being Imperialist though.
There is no other state that uses state run propaganda to extend its power in other nations to the extent that Russia does.
What a joke of a statement. The US has far more powerful outlets like this, see the Voice of X channels or Freedom House as just a few examples of how the US essentially runs the narrative in Western media.
Just using common sense you should be able to figure out that the country that runs the entire Western entertainment industry, which is exported worldwide and routinely submits to US government interests, has far more reach than Russia.
The key is state run. Obviously, US media has way more reach and is indeed dominating the “narrative” globally, but it’s (for the most part) not propaganda, because it’s not state run. People just like that stuff, I mostly hate it as well, but that’s how the world is.
No other state that uses its secret service to kill dissidents abroad.
Lmao, have you been living your entire life in a cave?
First of all, the most imperialist state from the end of WWII to today is the US.
There once was a father who told his son, “All swans are white.” One day, he and his son went to Australia on vacation. While there, at a park with a large pond, his son pointed out, “Look, Dad, black swans!”
“No, Son,” the father laughed, “all swans are white!”
Sure, and the West is even worse.
Short answer: Many people support those governments critically or uncritically for various reasons.
Long answer:
Russia: Some people who oppose US hegemony support Russia as probably the most effective anti-US actor globally - I mean look at what they’ve managed (in part) to do to the US government over the last 10 years or so. They may also be sympathetic to Russian anti-NATO sentiment. People who support China may also critically support Russia since they are a strategic ally of China. Some people just full-throatedly support Russia uncritically - I don’t know why they’re quite so enthusiastic, but most others who have pro-Russian sentiment are still critical of Russia, but support them as a major power capable of attacking US hegemony.
China: China is the most successful communist country to have ever existed. Many left-leaning people may support China to varying degrees because they are an Actually Existing Socialist country and because their model of Communism with Chinese Characteristics seems to work quite well for them. Due to the West (broadly) attacking Socialist governments in the name of Liberalism & becoming increasingly more fascistic, China could be an important bulwark against fascism. Many people support China uncritically - they genuinely like the Chinese system of government and want their governments to be more like China’s. Other people critically support China - they believe China’s government is problematic in some way(s), but support it anyway as a bastion of socialism and a significant challenger to US economic & political hegemony.
As for support for the governments as opposed to the people: We kind of have to talk about these things at the country level, since governments are the (imperfect) embodiments of political ideologies and collectively act on behalf of the people within their borders, and “the people” aren’t monolithic. We often treat countries as avatars of political ideologies which is inaccurate but is an abstraction that unfortunately often leads to an oversimplification of the ideologies behind & effects of those governments’ actions while allowing us to create a comprehensible narrative.
In a very simplified answer: China and Russia (as well as Iran) never made any thinly-veiled threats of turning my hometown of Johannesburg into the next Gaza.
I saw China take COVID seriously while I was marched off to work to die because my job was “essential” - the US, EU, Canada, it was basically every Western country except New Zealand (which is an island and basically became a bunker nation for billionaires and shouldn’t really count)
I became pro-China after that.
lmfao hooman rights is when you do genocide and jail people protesting it
