Look up the Bonus Army
Also most US police forces, as part of the militarization of police, have been effectively using tanks and APCs against protestors and civilians for at least 15 years now. Israel uses the Palestinian people as guinea pigs for most of this new population control tech, then the equipment that works gets sold to US police.
One other more recent example too of the US using tanks against its citizens was the waco standoff. The US used tanks against, then burned ~100 people alive.
Since we have a lot of racist redditors coming over here catching bans for their historical ignorance about the June 4th incident, here are some resources:
- Notes for the 30th anniversary of the Tiannment incident.
- It wasn’t a massacre of peaceful students, but a skirmish between PLA soldiers and armed detachments from the pro-capitalist / free market reform movement. The protest movement, as evidenced by their own accounts, called for market liberalisation, and free market reforms, rallying around a replica of the statue of liberty. After the movement had been building in the square for seven weeks, unarmed soldiers were sent in to disperse the protesters, after which many soldiers were beaten to death, torched, and lynched. The New York Times death count went from 2600, to many thousands, to 8000, to tens of thousands. In reality only around ~200 (including soldiers) were killed or trampled, in smaller clashes outside the square. The on-scene New York Times reporter disavowed the article, especially about machine-gunning of protesters. A wikileaks cable from a US ambassador to the US state department, confirmed that no killings or machine-gunnings took place in the square.
- Latin American diplomat eyewitness account of June 3-4 events on Tiananmen Square wikileaks (PDF)
- There was a Spanish television crew that covered the entire Tiananmen Square incident as it unfolded. Their footage showed that there was no massacre. A few things worthy of pointing out - Liu Xiaobo and Hou Dejian, both student leaders of the Tiananmen protests, have been recorded as saying that they never saw anyone killed at the protests.
- The protest movement followed the line of “color revolutions”, in which the US tried to destabilize and create counter-revolutions in eastern Europe and Latin America after the fall of the USSR. The strategy was to stir division within and without, by inundating the media with news of massacres of “peaceful”, pro-capitalist / market reformers.
- The defeat of a counter revolution in China.
- Interviews from some of the student leaders.
- An account from a resident.
- Tiananmen Square “Massacre”, A Propaganda Hoax.
- The truth about the Tiananmen square protests
God. Its so nice for someone to link resorces. Idk wtf was up with the MLs Ive ran into in the past but they’d just yell at you and never provide any sources. It’s not exactly easy to find shit on China that isn’t western AF if you don’t know what you are doing. Which admittedly I do not. I’ve always had to use others to find good sources of information outside the imperialist umbrella.
All that is to say. Hey! Thanks a lot!!
Unfortunately, I think the reason this happens is because it’s difficult to remain calm and optimistic within a western-dominated internet. Some comrades react emotionally, rather than trying to create new comrades, either out of exhaustion or a belief that it’s too difficult.
I think trying to raise the quality of how we engage with people as communists is one of the more important tasks with organizing.
No probs!
Never feel bad about asking for a source, or investigating the sources people post. Imperialist propaganda can’t be debunked without rigorous investigation, and good journalists / investigators are out there, as much as western states would like to make them invisible (or kill them).
I forget exactly how the saying goes, might be from the Buddha: “3 things can’t stay hidden for long. The sun, the moon, and the truth”.
Yeah, trust it to tell the truth about it’s enemies though, right?
CW: People posing for a photo
Never trust a fascist nation to tell the truth about it’s enemies, especially when those enemies are communists.
You’d think it’d be obvious by now, especially after Iran, but some people really need it beaten in
The US is lying through their teeth about Iran, but Iran is hardly a communist government. They’re a theocratic authoritarian regime. There is no diversification of power in their government. Roles and responsibilities may be delegated out, but ultimate authority rests with the Ayatollah.
I’m not saying Iran is communist, I’m saying it doesn’t matter. If the US considers you an enemy, your reputation will be buried under a deluge of bullshit, one myth stacked on top of another, until the average american conversation about you essentially becomes collaborative fanfiction.
Go back to reddit
extremely serious and intellectually rigorous
I love whenever someone posts the “tank man” photo because the liberals always reveal themselves like roaches scattering across the room when a lightswitch is turned on. Mod ban hammer squish them all plz and thank you.
I love your portfolio.
aww, you’re sweet, thank you.
You are so very welcome. Thank you for sharing it with us!
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degenerate
Hitler particles detected, .world status verified
You can literally watch the videos of both encounters
Only fash.world blindly repeats imperialist imperialist propaganda
Westerners aren’t helpless innocents whose minds are injected with atrocity propaganda, science fiction-style; they’re generally smug bourgeois proletarians who intelligently seek out as much racist propaganda as they can get their hands on. This is because it fundamentally makes them feel better about who they are and how they live. The psychic and material costs are rationally worth the benefits. -Roderic Day
All the libs in the comments really living up to the quote.
The operative word being smug
Alexa, what is the definition of “irony”?
This is just smug for “no you”
Lemmitors really didn’t sent their best to this thread.
The Amerikkkan randomly calling me racist while being racist was fun if entirely unproductive. Same with the Canadian settler.
Don’t feel that you need to argue with these racists, because it can lead to burn-out quickly. You can always report them and we’ll try to get to it ASAP.
Also thank you for your hard work in educating everyone. It’s not going to waste, and everyone is learning a lot from your posts. o7
Seconding this, @QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml’s comments have been fantastic lately, and absolutely aren’t going to waste.
Thank you very glad to hear
Also thank you for your hard work in educating everyone. It’s not going to waste, and everyone is learning a lot from your posts. o7
Thank you always great to hear.
Don’t feel that you need to argue with these racists, because it can lead to burn-out quickly. You can always report them and we’ll try to get to it ASAP.
Yeah definitely I always make sure to report any actual racism etc I see but it is fun to blow off steam arguing with/making fun of them at the same time even if it’s entirely unproductive.
Speaking from experience. Still be careful. Even when you think you are blowing off steam, more could be going on then you think. I didnt realize how miserable I had gotten till I had take some time away.
Arguing with randos on the internet can honestly really fuck with a person.
If it helps, it was fun to see you owning them
I just finished reading this article today a few hours ago! it felt like such an eerily perfect dissection of liberals it is incredible impressive, it doesn’t reduce their annoyance but it does provide an easier way to deal with it
Link?
My bad for not linking above, here it is: https://redsails.org/masses-elites-and-rebels
Thanks I’m looking forward to reading later
No problem!
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The tanks shown were leaving the square, which was evacuated peacefully. Even wikipedia backs this up:
In 2011, three secret cables from the United States embassy in Beijing from the time of the events were leaked and published by WikiLeaks, all of which stated that there was no bloodshed inside Tiananmen Square itself.[185] Instead, they said Chinese soldiers opened fire on protesters in Beijing outside the square, around Muxidi station, as they fought their way from the west towards the centre.[185] A Chilean diplomat who had been positioned next to a Red Cross station inside the square told his US counterparts that he did not observe any mass firing of weapons into the crowds in the square itself, although sporadic gunfire was heard. He said that most of the troops who entered the square were armed only with anti-riot gear.[185][207]
Conflict between rioters and the PLA outside the square around Beijing resulted in ~250 deaths total, soldiers and rioters combined, and the violence was kicked off by rioters lynching and burning alive officers 2 days prior to clearing the square.
Damn dude being an anticommunist is so easy, you can just make shit up and as long as it FEELS right you can just say it with your whole chest, and proceed to ignore people who actually know what you’re talking about.
Fuckin sweet
Anyway, show me literally any evidence of a tank firing its weapons that day
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“Is an image of some tanks” is the heaviest lifting fucking sentence I’ve seen in a long ass time.
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Never happened. The square was evacuated peacefully, even wikipedia backs this up:
In 2011, three secret cables from the United States embassy in Beijing from the time of the events were leaked and published by WikiLeaks, all of which stated that there was no bloodshed inside Tiananmen Square itself.[185] Instead, they said Chinese soldiers opened fire on protesters in Beijing outside the square, around Muxidi station, as they fought their way from the west towards the centre.[185] A Chilean diplomat who had been positioned next to a Red Cross station inside the square told his US counterparts that he did not observe any mass firing of weapons into the crowds in the square itself, although sporadic gunfire was heard. He said that most of the troops who entered the square were armed only with anti-riot gear.[185][207]
Conflict between rioters and the PLA outside the square around Beijing resulted in ~250 deaths total, soldiers and rioters combined, and the violence was kicked off by rioters lynching and burning alive officers 2 days prior to clearing the square.
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Only a few hundred people died, not thousands. And some people may have been armed! So it’s fine to kill scores of people.
“Some people” aka insurrectionists were not maybe armed.
These insurrectionists bombed and killed soldiers. And THEY. BOMBED. FIRST.
There is no maybe in this scenario just as much as there is no maybe in the Jan 6th insurrection.
What were these other soldiers supposed to do that are trained to fight and protect their country?
Just stand there and take some more?
What is the proper response according to you when a group of terrorists bombs a military convoy?The tanks were driving away and didn’t kill anyone this time
They didn’t kill him because he posed no threat unlike the terrorists that bombed their convoy.
End of story.What were these other soldiers supposed to do that are trained to fight and protect their country? Just stand there and take some more? What is the proper response according to you when a group of terrorists bombs a military convoy?
You edited your post so I’ll reply again: The test, which America and China both repeatedly fail, is having professional law enforcement and soldiers kill their own citizens. This is one of the most utter, final failures of government. There are plenty of options besides killing people, and when you take up arms and swear oaths to protect your country, and then kill citizens of your own country, you break your oath.
Your argument fails because there’s no need to actually intercede and halt protests. In the case of the pro-democracy movement crushed by the PLA in June 1989, martial law and attacks on protesters had begun en masse 2 weeks before the massacre. There was a steady escalation of violence leading up to the riots in early june. So the idea that the protestors “struck first” (even if that is a justification, which it isn’t, is false. The facts, which aren’t in dispute, were that the anti-corruption policies implemented to answer the complaints of the protestors were well-received, and further reforms were desired by everyone, not just the student protestors. Everyone except the local officials who were at risk of losing their positions by a government overhaul from authoritarianism to democracy.
The protest could have continued to be disrupted the way they already were before the massacre:
- Through wiretaps and arrests
- Through planted dissenters sowing chaos in the student’s ranks
- Through rubber bullets + tear gas, and other nonlethal methods
Instead, even though 300,000 people were protesting that period, the actions of an interim commander who acted on poor discipline and leadership, directly lead to at least hundreds, and possibly thousands, of his own people, in a small section of the city. That is a spectacular failure, and the end of a certain degree of human autonomy in China.
This is coming from someone who actually thinks China is leading the world in many ways. I do genuinely believe that China is actually less corrupt than many other nations, and the high degree of social cohesion in-country is something that gives them strength. Like I said in my first post: lots to admire, but this ain’t it.
The protest could have continued to be disrupted the way they already were before the massacre:
Through wiretaps and arrests Through planted dissenters sowing chaos in the student’s ranks Through rubber bullets + tear gas, and other nonlethal methods
A) There was no “massacre”
B) We have no idea if these tactics weren’t also used, and
C) Let’s be honest, if they had done these things and it had worked, you people would never shut the fuck up about that either.
This is just the other bullet points again! I’m sure if more armed rebels entered the capital it would have been incredibly messy and people would have died. And killing a ton of people, regardless of why, is a failure of government. Conflating one violent protest with another and then saying “America Bad so China Fine” is inane.
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The image is misleading, but the CPC itself acknowledged at least 241 deaths. Also, you cannot find information about the incident while in China. Can personally confirm.
Also, you cannot find information about the incident while in China. Can personally confirm.
Yeah no information, it’s only taught as part of the mandatory “outline of modern Chinese history” at university.
In that link, they refer to it as:
“The 1989 political turmoil and subsidence.”
That is a really weird way to call a massacre, don’t you think?
Please we all know that the Government hides the search results in China if you look for it. Or are you going to deny that?
Like, why lie?
China bans Tiananmen Square-related web search terms https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-18321548
https://www.businessinsider.com/words-china-banned-from-search-engines-after-tiananmen-square-2014-6
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/04/tiananmen-square-online-search-censored
Because massacre is poor categorization of what was a violent clash between rioters and the military acting as riot police. Like why pretend to be a leftists when you’re a Canadian settler shitlib. Clearly not very good at categorising things. Also when did I deny their were restrictions around what is a very sensitive event that had western backing? All I said was that it is taught about as part of a mandatory course at university. The idea it’s fully blacked out is western chauvinist fantasy and honestly not even a very creative one. You are not very intelligent are you?
You know there are photos of the dead people right? And videos?
Canadian Seltler shitllib? Hahaha. Cute, friend. You know nothing about me.
Nice that you went and checked my history as to come up with something to side track my points. I am not sure if you are a CCP shill or just brainwashed in propaganda.
Also, you are moving the goal post, friend. You told the guy you responded to that the Tiananmen Square masacre was not censored. It is. That is my point and provided proof that it is and I can do that without lowering to your level of insults. Clearly, I hit a nerve, it is okay Comrade. Be happy.
There is a reason why put a link in Chinese in an English speaking forum without translaltion.
You know there are photos of the dead people right? And videos?
People die when rioters (whose leaders did interviews explaining their plan to incite massive violence and flee to America) clash with the military did I deny that? It was categorically not a massacre.
You know nothing about me.
From replying to you before I know you’re Canadian and a self proclaimed lib thus 90% chance you’re white thus a settler. So taking it all together Canadian settler shitlib.
Nice that you went and checked my history as to come up with something to side track my points. I am not sure if you are a CCP shill or just brainwashed in propaganda.
Again didn’t check your history we’ve simply talked before. Also holy chauvinism really reinforcing the whole settler shitlib. And it’s CPC not CCP.
Also, you are moving the goal post, friend. You told the guy you responded to that the Tiananmen Square masacre was not censored. It is.
Massive twisting of what was said. He said you couldn’t find any information when in fact it is part of the mandatory university course which is all I pointed out.
Again I must ask are you genuinely unintelligent?
You are referring to unarmed protestors against fully armed military, with tanks? LOL, aha. Damn those rioters attacking the military with their own blood, splattered on the square. Those demons!
Not white. You know nothing about me. Keep Shilling, Comrade. Oh, we talked before? Is that so? Oh, fair, but I do not remember you, nor care to know you. It is true that I am a Liberal and I will give you the decency of not being as petty as you, since I do not have to rely on insults when I have facts and sources.
Again, all you have proven is that I hit a nerve. Can’t even take the slightest of critism.
So, here is the difference of the searches that people did even back in the day, noticed the difference between the searches in Chinese VS the ones outside of China. Thus proving OPs and my point.
For anyone to look, like this is nothing new. This is how China would change results on actual internet searches. https://imgur.com/a/vbkFA
The university course on your link is reframed, obviously. That is the whole point on censorship. I can tell by the other curses and the content that a lot of things are reframed as well. Again, there is reason why you posted a Chinese link in an English focused site. We all know how idealogues think.
Anyway, stop lying. That point remains.
Lastly, on this segment of this documentary, Tank Man, these Asian students claim to not even recognize the famous “Tank Man” when asked.
So, either they do not know, which I fully doubt, if you hear what she says, or they do know, which is the case,but do not want to publicly discuss it on camera and risk getting any type of trouble. Take your pick.
From 2008: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuuddurPLV8&t=86
Rely in common sense comrade. Have a great one, Cheers.
Lastly, on this segment of this documentary, Tank Man, these Asian students claim to not even recognize the famous “Tank Man” when asked.
I genuinely can’t believe a person can be this dumb. Did you ever consider the fact that Tank Man is completely irrelevant for history and it’s only a fucking image for propaganda? Why anyone knows about the image? Because is the image about the square that appears when people talk about the event. This guy is completely irrelevant.
You are referring to unarmed protestors against fully armed military, with tanks? LOL, aha. Damn those rioters attacking the military with their own blood, splattered on the square. Those demons!
They literally immolated and lynched military guards to start the riot. You are extremely fucking arrogant for how little you understand anything.
when I have facts and sources
Lmao. What you actually have is a chauvinist fantasy and an immense arrogance.
Can’t even take the slightest of critism.
you have provided no criticism just a vast misrepresentation of what I said and the events in question.
So, here is the difference of the searches that people did even back in the day, noticed the difference between the searches in Chinese VS the ones outside of China. Thus proving OPs and my point.
Again not what we were talking about he said there was no information implying and perpetuating the nonsense lie that the date/event is scrubbed from history which is factually incorrect in the same way saying Winnie the pooh is banned is factually incorrect.
The university course on your link is reframed, obviously. That is the whole point on censorship. I can tell by the other curses and the content that a lot of things are reframed as well. Again, there is reason why you posted a Chinese link in an English focused site. We all know how idealogues think.
Chauvinism.
Lastly, on this segment of this documentary, Tank Man, these Asian students claim to not even recognize the famous “Tank Man” when asked.
He’s famous because who he is and what he did are completely reframed in the west as some sacrificial martyr jumping Infront of tanks (generally with the implication that he was ran over) whereas in reality he was a random man who wanted the tanks to return to the square and was ushered off by passers by not really a revolutionary figure or particularly relevant to the event as a whole. You people are so insufferably arrogant your vision and imagination must be reality.
Rely in common sense comrade.
“Just believe the western propoganda”. I’m no comrade of yours you Hitlerite settler.
You’re a racist Han bigot. Don’t bother relying. I don’t communicate with stupid racists.
I’m not Han lmao. The irony of you making a racist assumption calling me racist. 🤣
Go get em, Mr. Shlong!
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It may be helpful to provide a source, because this formatting sort of screams LLM
That’s because it is, and that’s the source.
LLM’s are not a source, and i never claimed it was.
just like wikipedia is not a source
You just put the LLM output there, if you mean Alan Donald is your source then he’s a liar as I already showed.
‘source’ as in the source of the comment (in this case yeah the LLM did not provide sources)
wikipedia does provide sources
that statement is in quotes because it is LLM. which is why i had to specify that i have read it and it tracks with my position on the matter.
if the information is deficient then because i have used it to stake my portion then others can take that up with me because it is the position i hold.
Okay maybe stop posting slop then
the position i hold.
A very brave and important position you have that you need the slop machine to hold it for you and if is not enough others may help.
careful with “AI” psychosis
LLM slop.
Of the few hundred people that died in the riots and fighting, the square was dispersed peacefully. The truth about Tian’anmen is that hundreds of protestors and PLA officers were killed in Beijing that day as the PLA advanced towards the square, but that the square itself was evacuated peacefully, which matches leaked US cables and the CPC’s official stance on what it calls the “June 4th incident”. This is a rejection of the commonly reported story of 10,000 people being killed on the square itself, which originated from a British diplomat’s cable. Said diplomat was later confirmed to have evacuated well before.
Western nations intentionally sensationalize the quantity of deaths and the character of the events. This is also why Western Nations don’t frequently report on the South Korean Gwang-Ju massacre that occured around the same era, where the South Korean millitary murdered thousands of High School and College students protesting against Chun Do-Hwan’s dictatorship. All of what I said is backed up by the Wikipedia page for Tian’anmen Square Protests and Massacre, such as Alan Donald revising his estimate from 10,000 to the low thousands yet BBC continuing to report the 10,000 figure:
In a disputed cable sent in the aftermath of the events at Tiananmen, British Ambassador Alan Donald initially claimed, based on information from a “good friend” in the State Council of China, that a minimum of 10,000 civilians died,[237] claims which were repeated in a speech by Australian Prime Minister Bob Hawke,[238] but which is an estimated number much higher than other sources provided.[239][240] After the declassification, former student protest leader Feng Congde pointed out that Donald later revised his estimate to 2,700–3,400 deaths.
The truth is that hundreds of rioters and the PLA died that day, but the square was evacuated peacefully. You believe right-wing propagandist slander.
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None of my rebuttals are oxymorons, so I’m not sure what you mean by that. Secondly, the fact that China disagrees with the west does not mean that the west is correct. I thoroughly debunked your assertions supporting claims by Alan Donald, who fled the scene before the square was dispersed. You aren’t using rhetoric well, and the LLM nonsense is trained on western information and thus is dominated by the propagandist view.
People are upvoting slop because the slop regurgitated what they want to hear LMAO.
And both pictures show off firsthand a brutal government dictatorship (in everything but name) that is actively going against the will of its people and stamping down boots on the throats of civilians who dare question or hesitate in the face of their rule.
stamping down boots on the throats of civilians who dare question or hesitate in the face of their rule.
Comrades, you ever notice how when communists write about things like this it reads like a history book and when libs write about things like it it reads like young adult fiction? These mfs think they’re giving a speech in a movie
The protestors in Tian’anmen were a mix of Gang of Four hardliners upset at Reform and Opening Up, and student protestors backed by the CIA that wanted to liberalize the economy. They didn’t have a consistent goal. Decades later, over 90% of the public in China support their government:
Well they kinda have to or one of those murder vans shows up. A lot of doctors regularly get 100 percent of the vote. That must mean they were beloved dictators?
What on Earth are you talking about?
He is saying a lot of dictators have 100% approval ratings. Misspelled it as doctor.
And the “murder vans” is a reference to execution vans that China uses.
“Yunnan officials authorized the use of execution vans in March 2003 and the province deployed 18 vans in the same year. Zhao Shijie, president of the Yunnan Provincial High Court, said, “The use of lethal injection shows that China’s death penalty system is becoming more civilized and humane”. Amnesty International expressed concern that the use of execution vans could increase the use of executions. The Supreme People’s Court encouraged provinces to adopt execution vans in December 2003.[2]”
There is a lot of activity about the vans being talked about online I am surprised you haven’t heard of this before.
Your evidence for the claim “Yunnan officials have started using execution vans at the behest of the Supreme People’s Court and Amnesty International is concerned” is…
…the Wikipedia pages for Yunnan, Amnesty International and the Supreme People’s Court.
Did you think people wouldn’t check?
Execution vans aren’t a real thing, though. China does have the death penalty, but not in this comical way, same as PLA suicide helmets. I’ve seen the claim before, but it’s ridiculous to believe them. You can see that the sources in the Wikipedia article don’t even back up what is claimed.
As for the idea that “a lot of dictators have 100% approval ratings,” I don’t see how it matters. Fear of the possibility of something isn’t evidence of it happening.
Because if they didn’t they were disappeared for re-education lol
If the Chinese people agree with you, they’re being honest. If the Chinese people disagree with you, they actually secretly agree with you but are too scared to say it.
Bro this is just political Niceguyism. “No dude she totally likes me and hates her boyfriend of 5 years, she’s just too afraid of him to show it. He’s probably abusive.”
No? Harvard studied this, it’s because the government consistently delivers on its ambitious promises in uplifting the lives of working people.
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You have a hypothesis with no backing. Back up your hypothesis, or accept that the citizenry of China support it because it works really well and is getting better all the time. Obviously people would change a lot about China, the major difference is that they expect the government to bring about that change, rather than assuming it won’t.
Further, no, the rioters in Beijing were firebombing PLA vehicles and lynching officers before the PLA was sent in. That’s why hundreds died.
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People have reported on the execution vans, that’s just fake though. As for the suicide nets, the PRC has a lower suicide rate than the US, and lower than Taiwan, so not sure what your point is there.
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The tanks shown were leaving the square, which was evacuated peacefully. Even wikipedia backs this up:
In 2011, three secret cables from the United States embassy in Beijing from the time of the events were leaked and published by WikiLeaks, all of which stated that there was no bloodshed inside Tiananmen Square itself.[185] Instead, they said Chinese soldiers opened fire on protesters in Beijing outside the square, around Muxidi station, as they fought their way from the west towards the centre.[185] A Chilean diplomat who had been positioned next to a Red Cross station inside the square told his US counterparts that he did not observe any mass firing of weapons into the crowds in the square itself, although sporadic gunfire was heard. He said that most of the troops who entered the square were armed only with anti-riot gear.[185][207]
Conflict between rioters and the PLA outside the square around Beijing resulted in ~250 deaths total, soldiers and rioters combined, and the violence was kicked off by rioters lynching and burning alive officers 2 days prior to clearing the square.
evacuated peacefully… with tanks…
Okay.
Would you prefer I word it as “non-violently?” Nobody died on the square, that’s the point.
And 250 deaths
