Privacy for me has been incredibly rewarding, but when talking to people who haven’t been introduced to privacy, there are occasionally some moments that make it exhausting. One conversation in particular is one that I’ve had to go through dozens of times, and it always goes along these lines:
- Alice: Why is your phone in airplane mode? / What’s your phone number?
- Bob: I don’t have a carrier.
- Alice: But you have a phone.
- Bob: Yes.
- Alice: How do you not have a carrier?
- Bob: Phones can come without a carrier.
- Alice: What do you use it for?
- Bob: Everything you use yours for.
- Alice: How do you talk to people?
- Bob: Messaging apps over Wi-Fi.
- Alice: What if you don’t have Wi-Fi?
- Bob: Public Wi-Fi is everywhere. If I don’t have Wi-Fi, I likely don’t need to get in touch.
- Alice: What about emergencies?
- Bob: I can still contact emergency services.
Each time it happens, it has a unique flavor. One person accused me of lying and then fraud. I know people are just curious and don’t mean to be rude, but it makes me die a little inside every time someone asks. I’ve begun trying to sidestep the conversation entirely:
- Alice: Why is your phone in airplane mode?
- Bob: To save battery.
or:
- Alice: What’s your phone number?
- Bob: You can contact me with an app called Signal.
People seem to think that a phone automatically comes with a carrier and that it’ll stop working if you don’t have one. In reality, I’m saving hundreds of dollars per year while avoiding spam, fraud, breaches, surveillance, and being chronically online. People have a hard time coping with those who do things a little differently.
The sad truth is: you can’t talk about online privacy with normal people, they just won’t understand, if you try to explain it, they don’t care, simple as that! They’ll ignore anything you say and probably call you paranoid.
I generally keep my privacy habits to myself, but if someone asks I will tell them. It’s always better to try with a chance of getting them interested than not to try at all.
If you are an old programmer/geek young people will dismiss you even though they don’t even know what a folder is. They think they are IT experts because they can apply the latest instagram filters to their photos.
even though they don’t even know what a folder is
Someone once tried sharing a file with me by copy pasting the file path as if it were a URL
Jup. I made that conclusion too.
However one time two friends asked me about secure messengers and I reluctantly gave up that I used Signal. Since then everyone in my closer friend circle suddenly had Signal.
I have shared and exposed my close friends to it and they use signal with me
Hello, wife?
Totally wrong, skill issue.
Just keep in mind that the purpose of Airplane Mode is to prevent transmission. Your phone might still be receiving signals like GPS and WiFi SSIDs, which it can record to be transmitted later.
If you really don’t want to be tracked, leave it home.
Or own your device with a custom rom.
At least by turning on airplane mode they cannot track your location.
How are you using Signal without a phone number? - asking cause I genuinely would love to do so!
You can sign up using a VoIP number or a burner phone.
So then you still need to give them a phone number to get texted on signal?
Signal requires a phone number to register, but I can hand out my username without giving them the phone number I registered with.
if the number you registered with eventually gets recycled to someone who then uses it for Signal, will that affect your account?
If that person registers with Signal then this guy loses his account and username. All new messages sent to his username will get sent to the new person’s phone but the new person won’t have any of the history.
I can’t fathom that Signal is not a honeypot.
Back when I tried to register, not only did they want a phone number (which usually links to IRL KYC stuff) but they also wanted me to complete a google captcha that took different metrics (canvas, etc) of my device.
Why is that needed? They say it’s to reduce spam, I just don’t believe it it.
Not only that, I can’t register using a linux system. I simply MUST register with a mobile device (that I will likely have on me) that can potentially track me through the cellular modem in the device and also likely has listening devices inside the device and a camera attached that is very hard to cover (because it’s embedded into the glass and and covering it with anything messes with the swipe up function).
No organization would create something that is so incredibly hostile to people who don’t want mobile phones and don’t want numbers unless they were a honeypot. I even think that Signal was created in a large part to try to siphon popularity away from XMPP before it could reach mass adoption.
Signal is not for people who categorically do not want numbers or mobile phones. They’ve never said that.
My work around was keeping the phone number but not on my phone so I never lose it like that.
Specifically I ported it to Google voice where its just parked with no monthly cost (there was a 1 time port cost). I’m not logged in to voice ever so the anti-privacy of google doesn’t apply. Any text messages I receive get forwarded to a non google email (but thats few and far between).
I’m sure there are other similar options out there, but I did what I knew and its been fine.
Not if you change this setting.
You might want to look into Matrix.
It doesn’t require any of that bullshit.
So it’s still yes, you do have to have a phone number.
I think it is not required anymore
No, you still need a phone number. IIRC it’s on the roadmap, but not a priority.
It’s a honeypot, so of course making it so anyone can use it, even without a phone number, even with a mobile device, is not a priority.
if it’s a honeypot, why would you make it easier to use anonymously?
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Public wi-fi is definitely not everywhere, but yeah, either you take joy in sharing the knowledge you have or you end up being a bit rude to prevent being asked.
That’s going to be highly dependent on where you live. In Tokyo I easily got around without service for years since there was wifi at every train station and convenience store
Not to be overly pedantic on the internet but something’s availability being ‘dependent on where’ is definitionally ‘not everywhere.’
Playing devil’s advocate, I think it’s reasonable to have a load-up-minutes dumb phone, in case family dies or something and they don’t have access to the right app. That’s reasonable for close family to get upset about.
But you also don’t have to give that number out, heh.
I guess you could use Google Voice too, but that’s a bit… counterproductive unless you can sandbox the app.
I think it’s reasonable to have a load-up-minutes dumb phone
Those are becoming harder and harder to find. It’s hard to even find prepaid SIM cards. You now have to buy a voucher, create an account, and add it there, which activates the phone for the number of months the voucher is worth.
This is the scene from Parks and Rec where Ron Swanson has to eventually concede to getting a flip phone.
Privacy but using public WiFi?..
My devices distrust any network, and I always use a VPN. It’s obviously not my first choice, but it can still be done safe enough.
If the wifi has firewall blocking non web ports, do you have a solution for those cases?
Mullvad VPN and others have “obfuscation” methods to mask your traffic as regular web traffic. If those don’t work, I can always connect to a proxy or Tor as a plan B, or see if any other Wi-Fi networks are available. I’ve never had this be an issue, but there are certainly options available.
I don’t have mullvadvpn but I use a different vpn that has obfuscation and I have tried every single setting within it but somehow some networks can still detect the vpn no matter what I try. I am not sure how they can do this.
The threat of public wifi isn’t as big of a deal as it used to be. Before widespread VPNs and when internet traffic was unencrypted, anything you transmitted could be read by someone else on the network. But nowadays all an eavesdropper would see is what websites you’re connecting to (without a VPN) or the VPN if you are using one. Happy to be corrected if I’m mistaken though
Try not having a phone at all. Those conversations are fun
How are you even alive?!
Edit:
Do you use your phone for navigation when driving? Any good app recommendations for navigating without cellular data?
*Cycling, but yes. I use CoMaps.
Ultimate Lemming:
- Cycles only, detects cars
- Uses CoMaps
- Uses Archlinux?
Im just jokin with ya 😉
2 and 3 check out with me, but 1st point is public transport only. Preferably trains + trams.
Although buses have the advantage that I can sit in the front where I can see the road, and they also tend to be less illuminated so I can see outside at night.
I wish there were dark carriages. Coach buses will have a few blue LEDs near the floor, but a train has to come with full sun worth of light.My city has no public transport and if you tried to bike from one end to the other youd be killed crossing a 6 lane interstate lol. Not to mention it would take you 10 hours.
Which sucks but I would never use public transport even if we had it. But it does suck for those who cant afford cars.
but I would never use public transport even if we had it.
Why is that?
Its not for me, and im in a place out of town. Public transport wouldnt work here.
Public transport pretty much always works everywhere that isn’t a country town with like 5 people living there, and at that point you could just walk or ride around.
If there is low demand you can start with a small community bus, then increase the amount of buses and lines. Increase the size of the bus. Then maybe build a tram line etc…
I’m not saying your govenment will do this but it is almost always possible and faster, safer and more comfortable. Unless you really enjoy driving or prefer the privacy that it offers (debatable but still somewhat valid) in which case public transport and other viable alternatives to driving is still the only real way to reduce traffic for drivers.
Uses Archlinux?
secureblue :)
Hopefully they can be overhauling UI to be much better. Would be cool if they made calls to wider community for UI people to come in to help out
I can second CoMaps. Works great when I’m somewhere and don’t have a local SIM.
Last time I checked, you can use GPS without carrier. GPS, and GNSS in general, is separate set of satellites. With cellular It’s just more precise since initial triangulation facilitated by cell towers. I recently was mid 5 hours flight and was able to see my location in google maps despite being in flight mode
Herewego works offline.
Yeah I dont get the comaps hype. It sucks anywhere that’s not a megalopolis. Here wego is far far better (for me).
Organic maps found on F Droid, download the state or area you want so is available offline. Won’t do traffic obviously, but gets you a to be.
I think CoMaps is the better choice.
CoMaps was founded in 2025 by former Organic Maps contributors. The Organic Maps codebase was forked due to concerns about the project’s governance, transparency, and the potential for shareholder profit at the expense of the community. The CoMaps project was created, focusing on privacy, performance and community.
Oh dang! I didn’t realize! Thanks for bringing that up good sir.
I’m someone who likes to walk the path less traveled in general. And in general I’ve found that people don’t respond well to such things. Especially when you explain them in dept. “Oh they choose to be different huh? => let’s ridicule them to cover up our own insecurities”
I’ve learned through trial, error and ridicule that people need to earn the right to an explanation to these matters.
I’m not gonna explain to Joe Shmoe that I use Linux because I’m doing my part in not giving the uprise in fascism the steady flow of data they want to increase their influence over the world.
They’d never understand. They gotta earn that by proving they care about the topic.
Yeah something like “Nun of yer business.” works well.
Never explain yourself to people who don’t want to hear the explanation.
For nicer people something like “Its probably boring to you.” can work well. If they insist they can’t complain. :D
Public WiFi and privacy in the same sentence? lolololol! You use McAfee too?
It’s not 2005 any more. Public wifi can easily be used securely these days
Whatever lets you sleep at night.
I’m curious about an example that comes to your mind as you say this. In your view, what is a privacy risk associated with public WiFi use that is not easily mitigated?
SSL stripping, DNS spoofing, captive portal attacks, leaky metadata attacks (which can and have been reported to happen with popular VPNs)
Lest we forget more and more companies are firing their senior devs and replacing them with college grad vibe-coders? Leading to an uptick in exploits and botched code.
Probably the biggest vulnerability is the captive portal. There is no way to verify you’re connecting to an official Starbucks router.
And of course there’s the zero days we don’t even know about.
What if your system has an unpatched vulnerability? You postponed that Windows update, or your Linux kernel is behind on patches, or even your firmware is vulnerable. Maybe you forgot to install the firmware update, or maybe your hardware vendor doesn’t support your specific NIC anymore. A compromised router could exploit network-facing bugs to attack you directly.
I personally wouldn’t connect to a public router if you held a gun to my head.
Using public wifi with no protections is already pretty secure since most things are encrypted now days. Using a trusted vpn to encrypt all of your traffic makes it almost perfect, since no people in the same network as you can have the faintest clue as to what your doing.
edit: It’s probably not almost perfect but definetly far better than using mobile data.
I thought you had to have a phone number to use Signal.
Could have a voip phone number
I don’t know how to get one and shouldn’t have to, just to use an app like Signal. Why isn’t there one we can use without having to give them a phone #?
Just use matrix or xmpp. Signal is centralized. If they stop offering the service it’s gone forever.
There’s always a compromise between security and accessibility. Signal is nice in that it’s pretty secure while also being acceptable. More secure options aren’t very accessible to the average person.
Signal does not care about anyone who does not use android or ios and offers no official way to create an account without them. I wouldn’t call that accessible.
“Universally accessible” is not a synonym for “accessible.”
That seems like a better idea, but it 's the same old problem where you’d have to get the people you want to communicate with to switch from Signal to that.
SimpleX uses the Signal engine but requires no phone number. Also can awt up your own server (unlike Signal).
A search for that term brings up about 10 different things from crypto to herpes, nothing about a messaging app
Search for it in the Google play store.
Thanks! They also have a desktop and a terminal version, nice.
Last I checked (over a year ago) desktop was not great. IIRC there was no scroll bar.
Also getting noobs to join is tricky. You cannot use your native camera app to accept an invite (has to be via the SimpleX app) and it screws up invites via Facebook messenger (gets confused by the tracking suffix Facebook appends).
No. Not any more.
Edit: Sorry apparently you still need a number for the registration.
Technology can be adapted to everyone’s unique workflow.
Yours is a highly specialised one, that apparently works for you. Something i may try for a day or two, but am confident can never adapt to my work flow. (Only know 2 “free” WiFi spots in my town. One wants an account. The other wants a phone number)
I would not be comfortable not having mobile signal. Public WiFi is not going to cut it. Even a 0.00001% chance that I’d miss an important call from my partner is no bueno for me.
Even a 0.00001% chance that I’d miss an important call from my partner is no bueno for me.
Yikes. I can’t imagine having this level of anxiety about being out of contact.
I wouldn’t say it’s an anxiety, I’d say it’s a cost-benefit analysis I’ve done and decided that having cell service to catch a potential emergency call is more important to me than that one extra level of privacy like OP. Hell, I don’t want to miss a call even if it isn’t an emergency. I love my partner and want to talk to them any chance I can get; if they’re calling I want to answer.
I’m happy for you.
I think you dramatically overestimate both the cost of missing a call, and the benefit of not missing a call.
That said, it sure is convenient.
I think you drastically underestimate how much I love my partner.
No doubt.
I’m sure you’ve got multiple backup carriers and a satellite phone with you at all times to ensure that 99.99999 uptime, which translates to about 4 seconds of downtime a year.
But surely you weren’t exaggerating that part too.
Of course the %age I used was an exaggeration. Sorry, was this conversation being driven by the assumption that it wasn’t? I exaggerated to make my point.
And yet you decided to continue this thread by saying that you weren’t exaggerating.
I think you dramatically don’t understand how different other people are compared to you. Either that, or you lack empathy. I can’t think of any other reasons why you would distrust and dismiss their reasoning.
Hot takes here chunkystyles.
You really got me thinking about how some people just love each other so much that they would move mountains to make sure they don’t miss a single text message, and that’s completely normal, and not at all anxious behavior.
That missed text message or call could be the one where they call for help and you don’t get it and oh god what if I could have helped and oh god what if I didn’t get a chance to say goodbye?
Sure hope this person never drives or rides a bike anywhere. Probably fine if they do text and drive though. Because of the love.
You’re just driving my point home.
There’s really no reason for you to act like this. This kind of snark doesn’t endear you to anyone and it doesn’t help good faith conversion.
You’re just driving my point home.
Oh no.
there’s no reason for you to act like this.
Act like what?
Offering opinions in a public forum in support of the OP? Contradicting somebody making a silly claim that they can’t bear to be apart from their partner for 4 seconds a year?
Defensive when somebody tells me that I lack empathy?
You can still purchase an external cellular hotspot, which will be more private than a phone carrier.
Would using an old phone as an external cellular hotspot be almost just as private as using an application specific device?
I just looked at the video and wondered that since there kinda expensive (also I wouldn’t be able to use the calyx hotspots since I don’t live in the US)
There’s a bigger security risk because of a larger attack surface, and naturally phones can collect a lot more data than hotspots, but it depends on your threat model.
I guess it could be a decent consideration if I can find a way to anonymously get a sim, not really much point otherwise.
Woo hoo! Something new to be paranoid about!
I could probably have my phone on airplane mode all the time and no one would notice, I never pick up anyones calls to begin with.
you can use services like jmp.chat to get a reliable number anonymously for verifying anything that requires one
