- cross-posted to:
- hackernews@lemmy.bestiver.se
- cross-posted to:
- hackernews@lemmy.bestiver.se
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Nice, though I wonder about reliability of this thing, as well as capital costs. In any case, an auxiliary motor is a must, and good thing they have that too.
Now if only the green hydrogen was there already.
It is! But the extent to which it is used is limited by the efficiency losses that come with electrolysis, logistics, and reverse conversion.
I assume it could still be useful in applications that require long hauls, as dragging a heavy and expensive battery around can negate efficiency benefits over the long runs.
We did without auxiliary motors for a long time. The only reason a motor would be needed is if everyone is too greedy to pay for the work to be done right (having a big enough crew for rowing).
But the crew can’t stop the world from being greedy, so it makes sense that they’re using sails and a motor to improve on what they can.
You’ll need engines for manoeuvering. Other ways are just painful and not as safe.
No. I’ll need engines because I have too many enemies, and not enough supporters.
Rowing (or even getting out to swim and pull) is safer if you have enough people, because we can’t safely make and power engines.
I want a boat bigger than I can row on my own, so I want a motor. But I wouldn’t want much if I wasn’t up against people that seem to use motorized stuff to derive an advantage while starting gunfights over food that isn’t rightly theirs.
I’m pretty sure rowboats are absolutely not viable for moving thousands of tons of cargo. Also, they existed because there was a huge supply of slave labor.
That’s not to mention the larger crew doing hard manual labor would require much more food, which is a sort of fuel in itself, one that is not commonly produced in an environmentally sustainable way.
Electric motor seems to be the superior option all-round (except for energy density in storage, where diesel still reigns supreme by a large margin)
I’m pretty sure rowboats are absolutely not viable for moving thousands of tons of cargo.
I’m absolutely positive they’ve done exactly that.
Probably not one boat at a time, but I’d rate the importance of reducing the required number of boats as “less than low, a simple zero” and the importance of a breathable atmosphere as “extremely high.”
Also, they existed because there was a huge supply of slave labor.
And now there’s a bigger supply of slave labor than ever. Our owners have never been so far from needing more of us; so focused on killing us off and finding ways to do things without us, for such a long time. It’s nothing new to see a war engineered to kill off a few million slaves when there’s overstock, but it’s unprecedented to see stuff like chat bots deployed to drastically reduce the number needed worldwide.
That’s not to mention the larger crew doing hard manual labor would require much more food, which is a sort of fuel in itself, one that is not commonly produced in an environmentally sustainable way.
Irrelevant. I didn’t say “use bad methods to grow food and fuel the crew with that.” Why would that be my point? If I suggest avoiding the use of motors because they’re deadly and stupid, isn’t it obvious I’d also suggest avoiding agriculture methods that are deadly and stupid?
Or are you saying one good choice is the maximum suggestion you’ll entertain, and if I can’t suggest one good choice that ensures survival on its own, you’d rather just die than move on to second or third or more considerations of what mentally healthy humans would do?
I’m absolutely positive they’ve done exactly that.
Never on a historical scale we moved so much cargo. Long-range ships were primarily used to move something extremely valuable, such as spices and gold - and now we have ships hauling everything because it’s so much more efficient than anything else.
Our owners have never been so far from needing more of us
And so the solution is, instead of reducing work week and expanding social programs, to crank people up in dangerous conditions and make them do one of the hardest and most avoidable jobs known to humanity?
I didn’t say “use bad methods to grow food and fuel the crew with that.”
Fair, but it follows. Nowadays, in the age of cheap solar and new, eco-friendly power storage options, it is much, much easier and cheaper to add an electric engine than to maintain a fleet of wage-slaves fed by agricultural surplus.
Your kind of “solution” is both economically inefficient and inhumane, and doesn’t seem to get out of the box of “9-to-5 to everyone by all means”. So, don’t rush to accuse me of shortsightedness.
You’re wasting your time arguing with a pigeon.
Fair!
Though I had a bit of fun around the absurdity of their argument. Quickly went downhill though.
It’s honestly one of the funniest threads I’ve read in a while.
Did you get to this part?
Like they’re gonna have a fleet of oceangoing cargo ships, each towed by a massive team of willing humans, all while escaping the dastardly pirates and their motorboats.
It’s like Mad Max and Waterworld had a beautiful, insane baby
Yeah definitely a troll. Probably AI-written unless they’re really dedicated.
I like this part:
So…why rowing, of all things?
Because we have arms. What the fuck kind of question is that?
deleted by creator
Never on a historical scale we moved so much cargo.
You said “thousands of tons.” I guarantee sails and rowboats have moved thousands of tons over the years. I’d even bet sails and rowboats move thousands of tons every year.
Long-range ships were primarily used to move something extremely valuable, such as spices and gold - and now we have ships hauling everything because it’s so much more efficient than anything else.
No, we have ships hauling everything because the gene pool has been taken over by lazy idiots.
If you think some number of your life-years would be a smaller price to pay for a shipment than some number of your dollars, it’s not that you’re an economic genius or a master of efficiency.
If you’re just using oil because it’s a convenient way to “save dollars,” without even realizing pollution impacts survival, that is again not a mastery of efficiency.
And so the solution is, instead of reducing work week and expanding social programs, to crank people up in dangerous conditions and make them do one of the hardest and most avoidable jobs known to humanity?
Why are you using a strawman argument in a place where I could get banned for an angry reply?
Rhetorical question, obviously.
Also, why is your strawman argument so ridiculous instead of trying to sound more like what I said?
Maybe you should read before replying.
Nowadays, in the age of cheap solar and new, eco-friendly power storage options, it is much, much easier and cheaper to add an electric engine than to maintain a fleet of wage-slaves fed by agricultural surplus.
I see no evidence of that at all. It seems like we have found a lot of safe ways to grow food and not really any safe ways to mass-produce solar panels or motors. What’s your basis for what you’re saying?
Your kind of “solution” is both economically inefficient and inhumane
Neither, actually
and doesn’t seem to get out of the box of “9-to-5 to everyone by all means”.
Incorrect again, and how? You think sailing is a 9-to-5? There are so many layers of you being obviously wrong, I don’t get how you typed this and didn’t notice
So, don’t rush to accuse me of shortsightedness.
There’s no rush, but you are obviously shortsighted, and you strayed pretty deep into bad-faith discussion with this reply.
You said “thousands of tons”
Thousands of tons on a single vessel. The reason we have such huge container ships is that while the surface area and subsequent water resistance gets squared, the volume growth is cubic.
This means the larger the vessel, the more energy efficient it is at delivering anything from point A to point B. This is exactly how shipping has become the most efficient way to deliver goods.
If you want to deliver the same amount of cargo by many smaller ships, you’ll need way, waaaaaay more energy to do so. This is incredibly inefficient, and ships of the past were of that scale exclusively due to structural limitations. Hence, shipping costs were incredibly high, leading to only the most expensive items being transported.
Now, rowboats cannot technically be wide, because otherwise you won’t be able to seat enough rowers to drive the ship. And they cannot technically be too long, or else, being narrow, they will be turned over or broken in a storm. So, they are forced to be small.
Oil
I answered you right there - you can use electricity generated through renewables instead of heavy human labor. Sodium ion batteries for smaller missions (like ports in Asia), green hydrogen for longer hauls (like China-US), and nuclear for particularly long hauls through complicated areas (like the Northern Sea Route).
Strawman argument
I re-read your comment again. You claim we’re all wage slaves anyway and it’s better to row a cargo ship until people in power decide to rather throw us into war. You also mentioned that it’s either rowboats or ecological collapse. Did I get it right, or did you mean something else entirely?
What’s your basis for what you’re saying?
Studies on the issues of modern agriculture and recent developments in renewable energy tech. We do have safe ways to grow food, indeed, but they require much higher level of investment and do not pay off very well, while renewables are already cheaper than their traditional counterparts, naturally leading to massive rollout. We just need to keep going with this.
You think sailing is a 9-to-5?
Obviously not as in “9 hours a day, 5 day a week job”. It’s more of a cultural reference to the current work time conditions. If there are too many workers and too little job, maybe the best course of action is reducing work time and redistributing gains made through automation?
This way people won’t need to do useless jobs like rowing a boat in the era of electric propulsion, and will have more time for themselves.
Bad faith
By no means. I was genuinely engaged with the conversation, but it just so happens that the point of your argument completely misses me. There are obviously better ways to do what you propose, and I fail to see the merits of going back to rowing as means of ship propulsion.
Rowboats cannot be big, hence they fail to reap physical benefits that come with larger ship sizes, which alone makes them so incredibly inefficient; they require intense manual labor and overblown crew, raising costs and reducing useful load, and they offer a very grim picture of the future full of pointless jobs instead of worker liberation.
So…why rowing, of all things?
Thousands of tons on a single vessel.
Which I responded to. Copying and pasting:
Probably not one boat at a time, but I’d rate the importance of reducing the required number of boats as “less than low, a simple zero” and the importance of a breathable atmosphere as “extremely high.”
The reason we have such huge container ships is that while the surface area and subsequent water resistance gets squared, the volume growth is cubic.
This means the larger the vessel, the more energy efficient it is at delivering anything from point A to point B.
Nope. It gets harder to build ships beyond a certain size, so our ships actually aren’t infinitely large, they’re at a size limited by construction difficulty.
Also, our biggest ships use crude oil, and I hear we’ve never really found a way to make sails work for ships that size, so it seems like our ships have actually gone bigger than the most efficient size.
This is exactly how shipping has become the most efficient way to deliver goods.
I don’t get what you mean. Most efficient in what list? What are the other ways? I guess you could define “shipping” in a way that excludes couriers carrying single items at a time, but what does that have to do with cargo ship size?
Were you trying to say crude-oil-based cargo ships are an efficient way to deliver goods? They’re not, unless anti-natalism is objectively correct, which I don’t think it is.
If you want to deliver the same amount of cargo by many smaller ships, you’ll need way, waaaaaay more energy to do so.
And?
This is incredibly inefficient,
If that’s “incredibly inefficient,” what adjective do you use for the inefficiency of misusing crude oil?
and ships of the past were of that scale exclusively due to structural limitations.
Again, ships today are still not infinitely large, they are limited in scale by “structural limitations” (more like construction method limitations but whatever)
And there was a time in the past when the biggest ships were the size the biggest ships should be today, instead of bigger
Now, rowboats cannot technically be wide, because otherwise you won’t be able to seat enough rowers to drive the ship.
No idea what you’re trying to say with this part
I answered you right there - you can use electricity generated through renewables instead of heavy human labor.
If you had a secret method to make that happen overnight, I think you’d have lead with that isntead of making me ask how. I see 0% chance your next reply is gonna have instructions for what I should do to make it so all ships are electrified with pure renewables within 24 hours.
But OK, I’ll bite. How?
Sodium ion batteries for smaller missions (like, ports in Asia), green hydrogen for longer hauls,
But how? What is the method you secretly have involving these? Just saying their names doesn’t give me any idea how to make all this happen so fast.
and nuclear for particularly long hauls through complicated areas (like the Northern Sea Route).
I’m glad you have no explanation for how to make this one happen, since what I want is a path away from extinction, instead of merely a different path towards it.
I re-read you comment again. You claim we’re all wage slaves anyway and it’s better to row a cargo ship until people in power decide to rather throw us into war. You also mentioned that it’s either rowboats or ecological collapse.
Terrible reading comprehension, but that’s to be expected from such a dishonest person.
Maybe you should try reading again and again until you can handle telling the truth.
Did I get it right, or did you mean something else entirely?
False dichotomy. I’ve meant what I said, and there’s no reasoning for the idea that I meant what you made up, instead of what I’ve said.
Studies on the issues of modern agriculture and recent developments in renewable energy tech. We do have safe ways to grow food, indeed, but they require much higher level of investment and do not pay off very well, while renewables are already cheaper than their traditional counterparts, naturally leading to massive rollout. We just need to keep going with this.
Again, how?
0% chance you’re secretly holding onto an answer until my next reply, and not just blindly saying false shit, but how do these “studies” show evidence your secret technique to electrify all cargo ships with renewables instantly is a better strategy than doing the best we can with publicly known stuff?
Obviously not as in “9 hours a day, 5 day a week job”. It’s more of a cultural reference to the current work time conditions.
The reference makes no sense. It’s as ridiculous at the metaphorical level as the literal level, and it seems like you’re just adding the dumbest shit you can think of to waste my time and energy in a gish gallop at this point.
If there are too many workers and too little job, maybe the best course of action is reducing work time and redistributing gains made through automation?
Are we suddenly randomly discussing a hypothetical where that’s the only problem? And you’re upholding you wrote this in good faith? Kinda funny, but moreso scary.
This way people won’t need to do useless jobs like rowing a boat in the era of electric propulsion, and will have more time for themselves.
Sure, in a hypothetical where we had no other problems, but it’s delusional and sick how you seem to be pretending this applies in the real world.
Bad faith
By no means.
Yep, there’s the part where you pretend this is you attempting good-faith discussion.
Why even lie at this point?
I was genuinely engaged with the conversation,
Nope.
but it just so happens that the point of your argument completely misses me
That’s why bad faith discussion is bad. You should try to understand things, instead of just lashing out when you don’t understand something. You’d understand more that way.
There are obviously better ways to do what you propose,
What proposal, and what ways?
and I fail to see the merits of going back to rowing as means of ship propulsion.
Again, not an excuse for bad faith. More of an example of why it’s bad.
Rowboats cannot be big
What the fuck is with this part? Scraping the bottom of the stupidity barrel for this gish gallop, huh?
I didn’t ask if your threshold for “big” is bigger than you think a rowboat could ever be. I can use a dictionary and pick my own threshold for “big.”
Are you trying to tell me there’s something wrong with me for thinking “big” is a fair enough word for the biggest rowboats, or is there something I’m missing about why I should give a fuck how you use the word?
hence they fail to reap physical benefits that come with larger ship sizes, which alone makes them so incredibly efficient; they require intense manual labor and overblown crew, raising costs and reducing useful load, and they offer a very grim picture of the future full of pointless jobs instead of worker liberation.
What?
So…why rowing, of all things?
Because we have arms. What the fuck kind of question is that?
I had to retype this entire reply because I accidentally clicked “reply” while copying that last sentence, and learned PieFed deletes any existing reply when that happens.
That made me very angry at your gish gallop, and yet somehow I’m probably the one at risk of being banned for being rightly angry at you.
If you have any fraction of a spine, either reply on nostr (where I can’t be banned), or not at all.
The is very cool! Now make one 10 times the size and put sales on all the existing cargo ships too.
**Sails…unless of course you meant they should sell all the existing cargo ships, in which case I retract my correction…
Sell them to me for a dollar each. I will rent them out for free in exchange for someone putting sails on them.
This sail sales.
Some of the best ideas are old ones reimagined for today and tomorrow.
Gotta be careful with that though.
Or you end up with things like this:
For Profit Prison -> Slavery
This era honestly sucks so much, the only way the next era can show a lot of progress is if it shows a lot of reversion.
“What if we took the sails off every fucking cargo ship?” is a sick question, and when society has answered that with “yeah let’s do it,” the sickness runs a lot deeper than that. We’ve just been taking insane/stupid ideas and running with them for a long time.
I think youre reading way too much into having sails or not lol
I would not want to go back to that era of illiteracy, poverty and disease.
Adapting old ideas into the modern world where it makes sense is good though
I think youre reading way too much into having sails or not lol
I’m not. My point is you don’t realize how many areas you should be applying this kind of thinking in.
I would not want to go back to that era of illiteracy, poverty and disease.
But you’d want to stay in this one? Or what’s your point supposed to be?
Adapting old ideas into the modern world where it makes sense is good though
I’m saying, when you think about how fucked up it is that we went so far with removing sails from cargo ships, you can see more of how deep we are in misuse of technology. It’s a microcosm of a big picture.
