The desktop has been Microsoft’s to lose for 30 years…

That’s the real thing for me: how painless is it to live with long term? After I’ve installed a couple of weird things, and configured some stuff custom - is this a distro that keeps rolling into the future, or is it one that makes me wish I had the time to re-install from scratch every 6 months?

Gnome is a good example of something that creates too much of a dependency

Agreed, I was never happy with GNOME, and starting about 5 years back I have been migrating my systems, personal and professional, off of it. That’s the nature of FOSS, no contracts to negotiate, make the choices that make sense for your use cases and execute them.

Does Gnome have too much dependency on Gnome: yes or no?

Absolutely. If you don’t mind using Gnome exactly as Gnome wants you to - this year - then it’s usually a pretty refined desktop experience, but if I wanted to be told what to like, how to like it, and to shut up and be happy, I’d use a Mac.

I prefer XFCE for its modularity… don’t want a launcher bar? Don’t run the launcher; nothing else misses it when it’s gone.

Mess around with Gnome too much and it becomes a nightmare mess of dependencies.

It definitely depends on what you are trying to get out of it.

I’ll grant: low lag audio performance in Windows is… dismal. Which is why everyone had conference call lag adjustment issues in 2020, “go ahead”, “no you go ahead”, “ok” - both start talking simultaneously again… It seems better these days, I’m sure that’s at least in part due to training of the conference participants, but maybe they have been working on getting the lag down without too many dropout / stutters.

We have a bespoke low lag audio system that was specifically implemented in Linux even though we put the GUI in Windows because of those lag / stutter issues, years back the audio was done on a dedicated DSP chip, but a Core i7 is more than up to the task on Linux these days.

The Linux audio pains I refer to were: A) audio just doesn’t work at all, and B) audio works, until you start to try to use two audio applications simultaneously - then they start to mess each other up. Both of those were better in Windows long before Linux came up to speed. But a lot of how Windows audio gets acceptable performance is big laggy buffers.

Attitudes develop over time… his may indeed be a defense mechanism or simply a response to all that hate.

things before were way worse… why not throw Sticks and stones at those people?

My earliest memories of Linux audio were in Slackware in the mid 90s, reading and re-reading the HOWTO that started off with a bunch of attitude about how real computer users don’t need audio, but we can do it anyway “so, if you must hear Biff bark…” and then a bunch of very unhelpful things to try following that never ever worked on any system I ever tried to use them on. Diverse systems that, of course, all played audio through Windows flawlessly.

But he’s also an abrasive know-it-all. A modicum of social skills and respect goes a long way towards making others accept your pet projects.

You mean like Linus Torvalds?

Linux audio has been a cluster^$%< of epic proportions since the mid 1990s. At least you can make single application systems work well these days, but Windows has really whipped the llamas ass on the audio front for 30+ years now, in terms of “it just works” user experience - without being hyper-draconian on the application ecosystem.

I see most often that it’s the people who live in init.d - interact with it multiple times a day - who are most vocal about systemd hate. I’m going to call “old dogs don’t like new tricks” on that one.

I do get into that layer of system maintenance, but it’s maybe 1-2% of my time, mostly a set-it and forget-it kind of relationship. There was a time when the old ways were easier due to more documentation and guides on the internet, which I lean on heavily because I interact with this stuff so rarely. Those days passed, for me, 8-10 years back.

Could be the difference maker in a game someone wants to play on their system.

One reality of the world is: the developers choose what hardware/OS configurations they target. If the makers of your game don’t target your RAM efficient system, you’re outta luck. Developers make their choices for their own reasons, but even with the ever-growing FOSS communities, the majority of developers work for a paycheck, that paycheck comes from profitable businesses and those businesses have very strong influence on what the developers work toward. The businesses only exist because they are profitable… FOSS may not be bound by those realities, but it lives in a world dominated by them.

90mb ram

If you’re in a system where 256mb of RAM is the limit, sure - go for the RAM efficient OS options, they’re out there.

Can you even buy less than 2GB of RAM in a desktop system anymore? Even the Raspberry Pi 5 starts at 2GB (and, yes, the older models have less, but I did say desktop system, implying: reasonable desktop performance.) Maybe if you feel the need to use a RasPi 3 as a desktop for something then you should dig around for one of your more efficient OS configurations, but I’ll note… back when RasPi 3 was the new model, Raspbian came default without systemd, but offered a systemd option. The systemd option booted from power off to the desktop (such as it was) in about 1/3 the time.

With AI, you can be 100% sure you can use the image however you want, without any repercussions.

For now… maybe. The courts haven’t really settled that issue yet.

AI should be able to do a really good systemd debate by now, the available training material is immensely huge.

So, I don’t like the guy either, but for a little devil’s advocacy:

The stuff that already “just works” was developed during a very different era in terms of computing power, tasking of the computers which were running the systems, etc. Nobody (serious, and he is serious) develops something different because “why not?” they, at least from their perspective, feel that they are improving on the status quo, at least for the use cases they are considering.

one-size-fits-all mentality is

being decided by the distro maintainers, not the developers. Sure, developers promote their product, but if a distro thinks that multiple flavors are a better path, they distribute multiple flavors. It’s not like the systemd developers are filling billion dollar war chests with profit because they’re using strong-arm tactics to coerce distro maintainers to adopt their products.

stuff everything into one bin

When one bin serves the purpose, it’s a lot easier to maintain, modernize, security harden, etc. than ten bins.

the community and its users will not always be able to freely develop FOSS.

Fork it and your loyal users will follow.

Gnome is a good example of something that creates too much of a dependency

Agreed, I was never happy with GNOME, and starting about 5 years back I have been migrating my systems, personal and professional, off of it. That’s the nature of FOSS, no contracts to negotiate, make the choices that make sense for your use cases and execute them.

FOSS shouldn’t work like that.

FOSS, by its very nature, should be expected to work all the ways. If a particular way can’t get enough developer traction, it stagnates but never really dies, not until the ecosystem it is dependent upon can no longer find hardware to run on and users willing to run it.

IBM/Red Hat finally decide to seal the deal and lock everyone out for good.

I am very glad that I walked away from CentOS about 8 years back, its proximity to Red Hat never made me happy. I have been trying to walk away from Canonical (toward Debian) for about 3 years now, but it still has some hooks that keep our professional team happier than Debian. If the unhappy ever outweighs the happy, we’ll execute the move.

Sorry if I can’t rejoice

Never asked you to. End of devil’s advocacy. I still don’t like the guy, but I never really interact with him. I do interact with his products and the alternatives, and in my use cases the products speak for themselves. There’s nothing about systemd that makes me dig around for systemd free alternatives - they are out there, but for my use cases I don’t care. YMMV.

My distro isn’t the best, but it’s at least a good starting point: Debian + XFCE.

Was using Ubuntu from about 12.04 through 20.04, but it is getting too snappy and support contract happy for me these days.

Yeah, I agree. Canonical seems to think “snaps are for everyone” so, for both my personal and professional applications they have decided: “Canonical is not for me.”

I view the delays during launch and the extra time spent during updates as a “load on the system.”

Also, it entirely depends on your deployment environment. I develop system images that go out on thousands of devices deployed in “Cybersecuity Sensitive” environments, meaning: we have to document what’s on the system and justify when anything in the SBOM (list of every software package installed on the machine) is identified as having any applicable CVEs… soooo… keeping old versions of software anywhere on the machine is a problem (significant additional documentation load) for those security audits. Don’t argue with logic, these are our customers and they have established their own procedures, so if we want their money, we will provide them with the documentation they demand, and that documentation is simplest when EVERYTHING on the system has ALL the latest patches.

The most secure systems are those that don’t do anything at all. You can’t hack a brick.

Thanks. In the past I have worked in Slackware, and even had Gentoo on my home system for a couple of years, but otherwise I’ve been fully saturated in Debian and its children - so that’s my “comfort zone.” I used to like KDE, but drifted away from it when I got a 4K screen notebook and KDE hadn’t figured out resolution scaling yet, while Ubuntu/Unity had. I never quite warmed up to GNOME, but definitely have done my time with it. XFCE has matured enough for me to daily drive it without too much pain now, and I love the ways it can be de-featured (don’t want a launcher bar? Don’t run it, nothing else breaks.)

Server-side, I have been filling my Raspberry Pis with Docker containers for a while now… it’s not completely alien, but I do kind of tend to “set it and forget it” when it comes to container deployments.

Not mocking: can you share any good guides to practical immutable systems?

What I observed of Ubuntu Core made a strong “not ready for prime time, and even if it was I don’t want it” impression on me.

There’s a lot to dislike about Canonical, but snaps is still relatively easy to purge and just get on with your underlying Debian package support…