Sucks. But Canada is under a shitload of economic pressure now with the U.S. fucking us over. It would be great if we could have everything, but sometimes difficult decisions need to be made.
The young people also need their healthcare funded right now, along with their education, job stimulus, etc. kinda a privileged attitude, if they just assume mommy and daddy can pay their bills when the economy implodes. it’s a difficult and complex balance, so one can only carefully navigate somewhere down the middle.
Every time the same argument. “Let’s keep our unsustainable society without any drastic change until the collapse becomes inevitable and it’s too late to prepare for it” is such a pragmatic approach.
Our economy is not in free fall right now. Everything we talk about here is not for short term. So the question is what do we want our economy to be in the coming years. Answer: great after 10 years, and then until 20 years from now, as we rip the money from oil and gas. But at the same time, declining until…
Free fall as the cost of climate disaster will not only nullify but then dig into the budgets until we’re overwhelmed. Floods, fires, crop failures. Not only is the plan to be totally unprepared, but renouncing climate targets mean we’ll actively contributing to make the situation worse. And all of this is written already. The only way to prevent it would be to abruptly stop all fossil consumption tomorrow morning, and yes, on that we agree: it would be a disaster.
We’re not talking hypothetical situations. We’re deciding today how bad it’s going to be, from very bad to absolute disaster. Very bad is we make a very very hard transition right fucking now.
But we decided it’s more pragmatic to bet on future absolute disaster…
But worse even for us: emergent countries are transitioning faster than expected. So it’s possible than 10 years from now, when we built pipelines, the world’s demands will be lower than planned, and we will be the idiots who wasted billions in the fossil industry and are now helpless in front of climate change driven disasters while the rest of the world, regardless how prepared they will be, will struggle just the same, because there is a limit to how much you can be prepared: you can prepare for very bad. You can’t be prepared for absolute disaster.
Take the money out of the >20 billion in subsidies for oil an gas, take it by taxing the ultra-rich who are fucking this country over. If the only “reasonable” reaction to pressure by the US is to double down on oil and fuck over the next guy then we already are a US state.
I agree we need to tax the rich more. But where do think that money sits? It’s not in a checking account. It’s in shares of companies and other investments. If the rich are forced to pay billions in tax, they have to pull money out of those things and that causes real operational reductions - ie layoffs and less productivity- and that means less product available to consumers - and so prices rise. It’s a complex interplay of issues and not really as simple as just ‘tax the rich’. Not saying we shouldn’t, but we have to do it carefully. Oil and gas subsidies are pretty short sighted, it seems, but why do you think it’s done? It’s to get international investment and productivity higher so people have jobs, we can buy things that we need from other countries and have produced resources for ourselves.
Well if we’re so bad, maybe it’s good that we go extinct?
The economy just is a part of society and is the way we organize resources. The way our capitalist society works, money naturally keeps moving upwards and screwing the poor - it needs strong regulation to work in a way that is beneficial for most people. Canada is better than the U.S. there. But there are realities that require society (and the economy) to continue to operate in such a way that allows the country to provide for its citizens. If the economy burns and society collapses, which you seem to want, then there will not be resources available to support the people. And any semblance of regulation that keeps lawful order and social safety nets will fail. And at that point likely some group will take over and then do whatever they want - without any regulation. So probably worse for the ecosystem.
Canada is like someone who’s trying to stop smoking, hits a rough patch, and starts smoking even more because they don’t know any other way to deal with stress. Doubling down on fossil fuels isn’t the only way to deal with this economic pressure.
Exactly so. The entire world is turning to renewables right now and the oil pressure only makes it more urgent and PROFITABLE. Going into this, new solar and wind were already cheaper than fossil fuels for power generation. Yet we’re still beholden to the oil companies who own our government.
Well yes, but not as directly and immediately as stifling businesses. Not saying I agree with Carney on this one; I don’t have the numbers nor am I an expert on macro economics. But Carney kinda is. So I’m on the fence whether to trust him on this.
He’s a banker. Bankers tell poor people “give us your money, we will keep it safe!” Did you ever trust a kid who tells you “hey, give me your candy, I’ll keep it safe?”
I too think thats the reason and not some ill intent. Basically ol’ reliable. (that in the long run isnt reliable but fucks the whole planet over but you know what i mean)
Yea, so I guess one of the changes allowing for companies to bypass evironmental reviews, which will do a lot to help US based energy companies, pisses you off, then? Or any of the other things being done that benefit US companies at our expense?
Be serious, he’s selling us out and we’re getting fuck-all in return.
Yes it does piss me off. And we shouldn’t allow US control of any of our resources. Not that big Canadian companies would be much better.
I do think that some of the environmental controls and other regulations may have gone too far and they tend to just make development impossible. And as much as we might not like it, we do need development.
Development for development’s sake is so utterly worthless, though. If we do it poorly it just costs us money and whatever we do get is funnelled towards the ultra-rich who centrists and conservatives refuse tax. We have known how to fix this shit for a loooong time but we cannot seem to bring ourselves to a) vote for anyone who actually represents us or b) even show up to vote at all.
Stop making excuses for the worst people and start standing up for yourself.
Hey, maybe I’m one of those ultra rich who benifits from this! I’m not, and I agree with you. But a lot of what gets built isn’t just for development’s sake. We actually benefit from a healthy economy; without it things would be much worse. There should be more regulation and taxes on the wealthy; but it’s a tricky balance with lots of moving parts and complicated interactions.
Do you know what a healthy economy is? Do you know how to measure it? Every single year, inflation outpaces most people’s buying power. A healthy, strong economy is one where small amounts of money change hands often, and where everyone has a place in it. It’s one where people have choice, and companies hire more people than necessary so that newer generations are trained. It’s one where we people can have savings, and where the generational expectation is retirement and homeownership. That’s not what we have, and that’s not what funnelling money to corporations will give us.
Instead, we have inflation outpacing wages, a housing crisis, all our levels of government sucking landlord dick, and a PM who thinks that unions are dumb as evidenced by his response to the Air Canada strike last year. We have a government that is giving nearly 9bil in development fee discounts to Ontario builders that their customers will never see reflected in the price.
Stop with this “it’s a tricky balance” crap. It’s not, you’re just absolutely scared shitless of something of value being imperfect so you retreat to excuses for why we can’t do anything at all.
No - I think we should do things. But we do need to keep things going while we transition. Yes things are bad and clearly a conservative banker is not going to be very progressive. But I just think you might be missing how bad things are for Canada with its biggest trading partner fucking it over. And what that means to Canadians unless drastic measures. Things are crappy now but they really can get a lot worse if we’re not careful .
Nah bro, you’re just a moron who thinks that progressive ideals being simply better than this fuck-shit mess makes them “too extreme”. Coward behaviour based entirely in your feels and right-wing propaganda and I don’t have any more time for it.
“If we’re not careful” I mean this from the bottom of my heart, go fuck yourself.
Sucks. But Canada is under a shitload of economic pressure now with the U.S. fucking us over. It would be great if we could have everything, but sometimes difficult decisions need to be made.
You realize that from young people point of view, the “hard decision” is “let’s just fuck the young ones and embrace collective suicide!”?
The young people also need their healthcare funded right now, along with their education, job stimulus, etc. kinda a privileged attitude, if they just assume mommy and daddy can pay their bills when the economy implodes. it’s a difficult and complex balance, so one can only carefully navigate somewhere down the middle.
Every time the same argument. “Let’s keep our unsustainable society without any drastic change until the collapse becomes inevitable and it’s too late to prepare for it” is such a pragmatic approach.
The problem is that we simply can’t throw our economy away. It would lead to disaster even quicker.
You know what you can do right now?
Tax the rich!prepare ladder to make a fall even more hard!Our economy is not in free fall right now. Everything we talk about here is not for short term. So the question is what do we want our economy to be in the coming years. Answer: great after 10 years, and then until 20 years from now, as we rip the money from oil and gas. But at the same time, declining until…
Free fall as the cost of climate disaster will not only nullify but then dig into the budgets until we’re overwhelmed. Floods, fires, crop failures. Not only is the plan to be totally unprepared, but renouncing climate targets mean we’ll actively contributing to make the situation worse. And all of this is written already. The only way to prevent it would be to abruptly stop all fossil consumption tomorrow morning, and yes, on that we agree: it would be a disaster. We’re not talking hypothetical situations. We’re deciding today how bad it’s going to be, from very bad to absolute disaster. Very bad is we make a very very hard transition right fucking now.
But we decided it’s more pragmatic to bet on future absolute disaster…
But worse even for us: emergent countries are transitioning faster than expected. So it’s possible than 10 years from now, when we built pipelines, the world’s demands will be lower than planned, and we will be the idiots who wasted billions in the fossil industry and are now helpless in front of climate change driven disasters while the rest of the world, regardless how prepared they will be, will struggle just the same, because there is a limit to how much you can be prepared: you can prepare for very bad. You can’t be prepared for absolute disaster.
Take the money out of the >20 billion in subsidies for oil an gas, take it by taxing the ultra-rich who are fucking this country over. If the only “reasonable” reaction to pressure by the US is to double down on oil and fuck over the next guy then we already are a US state.
Not directly related, but can we also seize Kevin O’Leary’s assets and fire him out of a cannon into the sun?
As long as it is televised on CBC.
I agree we need to tax the rich more. But where do think that money sits? It’s not in a checking account. It’s in shares of companies and other investments. If the rich are forced to pay billions in tax, they have to pull money out of those things and that causes real operational reductions - ie layoffs and less productivity- and that means less product available to consumers - and so prices rise. It’s a complex interplay of issues and not really as simple as just ‘tax the rich’. Not saying we shouldn’t, but we have to do it carefully. Oil and gas subsidies are pretty short sighted, it seems, but why do you think it’s done? It’s to get international investment and productivity higher so people have jobs, we can buy things that we need from other countries and have produced resources for ourselves.
Well if we’re so bad, maybe it’s good that we go extinct?
The economy just is a part of society and is the way we organize resources. The way our capitalist society works, money naturally keeps moving upwards and screwing the poor - it needs strong regulation to work in a way that is beneficial for most people. Canada is better than the U.S. there. But there are realities that require society (and the economy) to continue to operate in such a way that allows the country to provide for its citizens. If the economy burns and society collapses, which you seem to want, then there will not be resources available to support the people. And any semblance of regulation that keeps lawful order and social safety nets will fail. And at that point likely some group will take over and then do whatever they want - without any regulation. So probably worse for the ecosystem.
Canada is like someone who’s trying to stop smoking, hits a rough patch, and starts smoking even more because they don’t know any other way to deal with stress. Doubling down on fossil fuels isn’t the only way to deal with this economic pressure.
Exactly so. The entire world is turning to renewables right now and the oil pressure only makes it more urgent and PROFITABLE. Going into this, new solar and wind were already cheaper than fossil fuels for power generation. Yet we’re still beholden to the oil companies who own our government.
Take a load of this guy thinking that climate change doesn’t cause economic pressure.
Well yes, but not as directly and immediately as stifling businesses. Not saying I agree with Carney on this one; I don’t have the numbers nor am I an expert on macro economics. But Carney kinda is. So I’m on the fence whether to trust him on this.
He’s a banker. Bankers tell poor people “give us your money, we will keep it safe!” Did you ever trust a kid who tells you “hey, give me your candy, I’ll keep it safe?”
Canadian banks seem to keep money safe. Not sure how your analogy applies.
You don’t think critical infrastructure being on fire stifles businesses?
What’s on fire?
The planet
I’ll get the marshmallows!
Ok, Boomer.
Do non boomers never have to make difficult decisions? Sounds nice. Where do I sign up?
I too think thats the reason and not some ill intent. Basically ol’ reliable. (that in the long run isnt reliable but fucks the whole planet over but you know what i mean)
This is why we should have gotten out of the US trade relationship
yesterdaylast yeara decade agotwo decades agoI mean never got involved with them.All we can do now is get out of it and take the brunt of the economic down turn that comes from allowing it to reach this point.
Yea, so I guess one of the changes allowing for companies to bypass evironmental reviews, which will do a lot to help US based energy companies, pisses you off, then? Or any of the other things being done that benefit US companies at our expense?
Be serious, he’s selling us out and we’re getting fuck-all in return.
Yes it does piss me off. And we shouldn’t allow US control of any of our resources. Not that big Canadian companies would be much better.
I do think that some of the environmental controls and other regulations may have gone too far and they tend to just make development impossible. And as much as we might not like it, we do need development.
Development for development’s sake is so utterly worthless, though. If we do it poorly it just costs us money and whatever we do get is funnelled towards the ultra-rich who centrists and conservatives refuse tax. We have known how to fix this shit for a loooong time but we cannot seem to bring ourselves to a) vote for anyone who actually represents us or b) even show up to vote at all.
Stop making excuses for the worst people and start standing up for yourself.
Hey, maybe I’m one of those ultra rich who benifits from this! I’m not, and I agree with you. But a lot of what gets built isn’t just for development’s sake. We actually benefit from a healthy economy; without it things would be much worse. There should be more regulation and taxes on the wealthy; but it’s a tricky balance with lots of moving parts and complicated interactions.
Do you know what a healthy economy is? Do you know how to measure it? Every single year, inflation outpaces most people’s buying power. A healthy, strong economy is one where small amounts of money change hands often, and where everyone has a place in it. It’s one where people have choice, and companies hire more people than necessary so that newer generations are trained. It’s one where we people can have savings, and where the generational expectation is retirement and homeownership. That’s not what we have, and that’s not what funnelling money to corporations will give us.
Instead, we have inflation outpacing wages, a housing crisis, all our levels of government sucking landlord dick, and a PM who thinks that unions are dumb as evidenced by his response to the Air Canada strike last year. We have a government that is giving nearly 9bil in development fee discounts to Ontario builders that their customers will never see reflected in the price.
Stop with this “it’s a tricky balance” crap. It’s not, you’re just absolutely scared shitless of something of value being imperfect so you retreat to excuses for why we can’t do anything at all.
No - I think we should do things. But we do need to keep things going while we transition. Yes things are bad and clearly a conservative banker is not going to be very progressive. But I just think you might be missing how bad things are for Canada with its biggest trading partner fucking it over. And what that means to Canadians unless drastic measures. Things are crappy now but they really can get a lot worse if we’re not careful .
Nah bro, you’re just a moron who thinks that progressive ideals being simply better than this fuck-shit mess makes them “too extreme”. Coward behaviour based entirely in your feels and right-wing propaganda and I don’t have any more time for it.
“If we’re not careful” I mean this from the bottom of my heart, go fuck yourself.
Ok, you’ve convinced me - you and your ilk are fucking morons and it’s way to dangerous to let you make any changes.