Why would that matter? The cultural concept of whiteness began in the 17th century. Definitions and categorizations have shifted but what different makes the exact time when italians were considered white and when not? Different dates would not chance the fact that whiteness is a cultural concept and an important one in modern (as in “post middle ages”, not as in “right now”) western history.
What are you even trying to argue, what is your point?
It matters because people that consider themselves white today were only “granted” whitenessrecently (to use the term again).
To say that the concept has existed for 400 years but that somehow it doesn’t matter that the definitions of the concept have changed is to lose the plot.
I agree that whiteness is a concept. However, I would say it is forced into culture, rather than being a part of it. Bovinos parent’s would not have been considered white in America when they were growing up, and the fact that he considers himself to be white now is proof that it is recent, but also meaningless as a label.
There is no such thing as white culture, or food, or music, or any other thing that one would call culturally relevant to being white. With one exception, one must and that is white surempisism.
I don’t know why you’re arguing with me then. I started this with the examples of irish people not being considered white in the US for a time. It was exavtly my point that not all pale faced europeans where considered white all the time. You then contended the historicity of that and started bullshitting around.
The concept of whiteness as it stands today is recent.
Bovino being Italian and a white nationalist is terrible irony that shows what happens when a group attempts “ethnic whitening,” wherein Italians were absorbed into the white majority by embracing prevailing racial hierarchies and shedding solidarity with other marginalized groups.
For the record, I was trying to add to your comment, not argue with you about the whiteness of Irish people. Especially since again, the term is arbitrary and continually changing.
Again, recency is relative. And arguing recency on an ever changing subject is weird imho.
You could also argue that it didn’t change that much, since most of the key characteristics didn’t change, only who fulfills these.
For the record, I was trying to add to your comment
You didn’t get my point. When the legal definition changes from “people X is white” to “people Y is white”, that does not necessarily chance on what characteristics the definition is based. It just means that the perception of who fulfills these characteristics changed. And historically, not being white usually was depending on a people or culture being perceived as (for example) “brutish”, “uncivilised”, “less intelligent” etc. These characteristics have not changed much.
Can you point me to a non-US source showing that Italians (or rather people from the area of modern day Italy) were debating or thinking about concepts like “whiteness” in the 17th century? (Or really at any time). I am really curious where those debates among members of a country or realm were using that as a category in discussions or considerations.
400 years ago, were Italians (like Bovino) considered white?
Why would that matter? The cultural concept of whiteness began in the 17th century. Definitions and categorizations have shifted but what different makes the exact time when italians were considered white and when not? Different dates would not chance the fact that whiteness is a cultural concept and an important one in modern (as in “post middle ages”, not as in “right now”) western history.
What are you even trying to argue, what is your point?
It matters because people that consider themselves white today were only “granted” whiteness recently (to use the term again).
To say that the concept has existed for 400 years but that somehow it doesn’t matter that the definitions of the concept have changed is to lose the plot.
I agree that whiteness is a concept. However, I would say it is forced into culture, rather than being a part of it. Bovinos parent’s would not have been considered white in America when they were growing up, and the fact that he considers himself to be white now is proof that it is recent, but also meaningless as a label.
There is no such thing as white culture, or food, or music, or any other thing that one would call culturally relevant to being white. With one exception, one must and that is white surempisism.
I don’t know why you’re arguing with me then. I started this with the examples of irish people not being considered white in the US for a time. It was exavtly my point that not all pale faced europeans where considered white all the time. You then contended the historicity of that and started bullshitting around.
The concept of whiteness as it stands today is recent.
Bovino being Italian and a white nationalist is terrible irony that shows what happens when a group attempts “ethnic whitening,” wherein Italians were absorbed into the white majority by embracing prevailing racial hierarchies and shedding solidarity with other marginalized groups.
For the record, I was trying to add to your comment, not argue with you about the whiteness of Irish people. Especially since again, the term is arbitrary and continually changing.
Again, recency is relative. And arguing recency on an ever changing subject is weird imho.
You could also argue that it didn’t change that much, since most of the key characteristics didn’t change, only who fulfills these.
That did not come across.
I’ll post this once more since the definitions of Whiteness change a lot.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_whiteness_in_the_United_States
You didn’t get my point. When the legal definition changes from “people X is white” to “people Y is white”, that does not necessarily chance on what characteristics the definition is based. It just means that the perception of who fulfills these characteristics changed. And historically, not being white usually was depending on a people or culture being perceived as (for example) “brutish”, “uncivilised”, “less intelligent” etc. These characteristics have not changed much.
Can you point me to a non-US source showing that Italians (or rather people from the area of modern day Italy) were debating or thinking about concepts like “whiteness” in the 17th century? (Or really at any time). I am really curious where those debates among members of a country or realm were using that as a category in discussions or considerations.