Even if we acknowledge capitalism is responsible for the rising tide of the last 100+ years (and even that is highly situational), it’s obviously not working anymore and without a way to externalize the costs of capitalism to people and places that “dont matter” those tools meant to externalize damage are now pointed inwards and the rewards fail to trickle down. now we’re all losing more than we put in, with that surplus value going only to the owners.
Even if you try to bring up China’s lower emissions per person, though quickly climbing in the last 2 decades with higher petrol use every year, they’re currently trying to stop population from falling while being more than double the pop per km as the USA.
So you’re Polish? Before you ask how I know: Poland is the only big economy which has improved somewhat in the 35 years following the dissolution of socialism.
Somewhat? It went all the way from shit hole to super wealthy in 30 years.
You’re ignoring the hundreds of millions of Ukrainian, Russian, Belarusian, Romanian, Bulgarian, Moldovan, Yugoslav, Hungarian… lives who went to shit after socialism was dissolved.
Soviet union did both a shit job at transitioning to capitalism, and has one of the most propaganda shaped societies in the world. Ukraine also struggles with fucking war with Russia right now.
There’s a research around communism nostalgia, and in countries that did transformation correctly, it isn’t really a thing.
So, yes, you’re just ignoring the hundreds of millions who suffered and suffer immensely, thanks for answering my question.
and had one of the most propaganda shaped societies in the world
Said the Pole lmfao
Ukraine also struggles with fucking war with Russia right now
The population collapse in Ukraine began way before the current war, it has only intensified. And, believe it or not, the current war is happening in capitalism, not in socialism! Formerly, Russia and Ukraine were sister nations, that have only been separated through geopolitical mires by capitalism, leading to the horrible outcome we see now.
Fascism has been voted in unfair elections, and now refuses to be voted out, turns out “fair” and “elections” are a political abstraction that hides the fundamental class antagonisms, god somebody should look into this
Wait wait wait. When Trump lost against Biden he claimed unfair elections. Once Trump won against Kamala Harris you claim unfair elections? That’s actually hilarious.
Lol. This is what I meant by “political abstractions.” I’m talking about actual things in the world, you’re talking about these ideas like a middle schooler, and so the only position you can even imagine, is the opposite of your baby ideas. But the opposite of abstract and idealist, is practical and specific. You have ideas, and I have experience.
I’m not talking about Trump and Harris. Also, did you just accuse the USA president of being a fascist? I’m pretty sure people are being put in camps for that, better be careful with that incendiary rhetoric, lol.
Both parties are corrupt and complicit.
First past the post is totally rigged for the two party system, both parties captured by elites and don’t represent regular people
USA electoral system makes sure many voters cant vote. one of the two major political parties (Republicans) actively campaign on making it harder for people to vote.
Our culture, which is controlled by our media, is objectively depoliticizing unless you want to identify with one of two political perspectives that oppose each other but don’t represent people or even reality most of the time.
States, and all elections are handled on the state level, are deeply gerrymandered. In my state, on 2 separate occasions, citizens voted for redistricting in our state and ratified it into our constitution. Both times, the constitutional mandate was ignored. The third time citizens tried to pass another constitutional amendment to un fuck our districts, the Republican controlled board of elections changed the wording of the actual amendment as it would appear on peoples voting forms and made it appear like voting for redistricting was actually making elections less democratic.
In 2016 and 2020, a popular left candidate was dequalified from running by the Democrats, through maneuvering and electoral manipulation. The problem isn’t just with Republicans.
Other structures of American politics are undemocratic and corrupt, such as the Senate, lobbyism, the two party system, the incredible influence foreign governments have on our policy, not to mention corporations, justice system illegally corrupted by business at the highest levels, plans like project 2025 being carried out despite them being extremely unpopular and obviously made to hurt people. On and on.
Is the communism that you voted out the Marxist-Leninist, “people’s revolution turned authoritarian state” kind? I’d get rid of that shit, too.
There are lots of other stands of anti-capitalism (eg, democratic socialism, anarchism) that are probably worth exploring. Even if we stick with capitalism but soften it with socialist policies, that’s still way better than the minimally regulated capitalism we have in the US.
Also cooperatives exists, and in many ways are more successful than their traditional capitalistic counterparts, providing a system to help “reconcile egoistic actors” by rewarding cooperation and solidarity rather than competition and utility maximization.
I listened to the discussion so far. The proposed system is still capitalism, but with some tweaks. IMO rather clumsy tweaks since there’s no clear definition what common good even is.
And instead of some point system, you can just collect taxes to finance welfare for citizens, which is exactly how EU economies work. In most cases taxation is progressive so it’s not like rich CEOs aren’t paying exponentially more than avg citizen.
In the US, progressive taxation gets called communism, lol.
But yeah. That’s kinda what I meant with my original comment. The more progressive EU economies are, to my understanding anyway, outcomes from the more reformist socialist traditions - using the existing democratic government to round off the excesses of unregulated capitalism. And I would take that any day of the week.
Point is every society has significant number of egoistic actors. You can’t design a socio-economical system with assumption that everyone will just work for “common good”
@BlackLaZoR the difference is that in a hierarchical system (like capitalism, where capital concetrates), those egoistic people tend to be at the top of society.
Capitalism is a horrible bad solution to dealing with egoistic people
Even if we acknowledge capitalism is responsible for the rising tide of the last 100+ years (and even that is highly situational), it’s obviously not working anymore and without a way to externalize the costs of capitalism to people and places that “dont matter” those tools meant to externalize damage are now pointed inwards and the rewards fail to trickle down. now we’re all losing more than we put in, with that surplus value going only to the owners.
TIL communism don’t pollute.
Even if you try to bring up China’s lower emissions per person, though quickly climbing in the last 2 decades with higher petrol use every year, they’re currently trying to stop population from falling while being more than double the pop per km as the USA.
Citation needed. It works pretty well where I live.
pretty funny how nearly all pro-capitalist notion comes down to “I’m privileged enough to be happy with the status quo”
Considering communism was voted out in fair elections here and noone wants it back, your argument is invalid.
Sorry about your capitalism brainwashing.
Sorry for moving from utter poverty to powerhouse economy rivaling UK. That wasn’t the plan.
So you’re Polish? Before you ask how I know: Poland is the only big economy which has improved somewhat in the 35 years following the dissolution of socialism.
Somewhat? It went all the way from shit hole to super wealthy in 30 years.
Soviet union did both a shit job at transitioning to capitalism, and has one of the most propaganda shaped societies in the world. Ukraine also struggles with fucking war with Russia right now.
There’s a research around communism nostalgia, and in countries that did transformation correctly, it isn’t really a thing.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/10/15/key-takeaways-public-opinion-europe-30-years-after-fall-of-communism/
So, yes, you’re just ignoring the hundreds of millions who suffered and suffer immensely, thanks for answering my question.
Said the Pole lmfao
The population collapse in Ukraine began way before the current war, it has only intensified. And, believe it or not, the current war is happening in capitalism, not in socialism! Formerly, Russia and Ukraine were sister nations, that have only been separated through geopolitical mires by capitalism, leading to the horrible outcome we see now.
Fascism has been voted in unfair elections, and now refuses to be voted out, turns out “fair” and “elections” are a political abstraction that hides the fundamental class antagonisms, god somebody should look into this
Wait wait wait. When Trump lost against Biden he claimed unfair elections. Once Trump won against Kamala Harris you claim unfair elections? That’s actually hilarious.
Lol. This is what I meant by “political abstractions.” I’m talking about actual things in the world, you’re talking about these ideas like a middle schooler, and so the only position you can even imagine, is the opposite of your baby ideas. But the opposite of abstract and idealist, is practical and specific. You have ideas, and I have experience.
I’m not talking about Trump and Harris. Also, did you just accuse the USA president of being a fascist? I’m pretty sure people are being put in camps for that, better be careful with that incendiary rhetoric, lol.
Both parties are corrupt and complicit.
First past the post is totally rigged for the two party system, both parties captured by elites and don’t represent regular people
USA electoral system makes sure many voters cant vote. one of the two major political parties (Republicans) actively campaign on making it harder for people to vote.
Our culture, which is controlled by our media, is objectively depoliticizing unless you want to identify with one of two political perspectives that oppose each other but don’t represent people or even reality most of the time.
States, and all elections are handled on the state level, are deeply gerrymandered. In my state, on 2 separate occasions, citizens voted for redistricting in our state and ratified it into our constitution. Both times, the constitutional mandate was ignored. The third time citizens tried to pass another constitutional amendment to un fuck our districts, the Republican controlled board of elections changed the wording of the actual amendment as it would appear on peoples voting forms and made it appear like voting for redistricting was actually making elections less democratic.
In 2016 and 2020, a popular left candidate was dequalified from running by the Democrats, through maneuvering and electoral manipulation. The problem isn’t just with Republicans.
Other structures of American politics are undemocratic and corrupt, such as the Senate, lobbyism, the two party system, the incredible influence foreign governments have on our policy, not to mention corporations, justice system illegally corrupted by business at the highest levels, plans like project 2025 being carried out despite them being extremely unpopular and obviously made to hurt people. On and on.
You’re not serious.
Is the communism that you voted out the Marxist-Leninist, “people’s revolution turned authoritarian state” kind? I’d get rid of that shit, too.
There are lots of other stands of anti-capitalism (eg, democratic socialism, anarchism) that are probably worth exploring. Even if we stick with capitalism but soften it with socialist policies, that’s still way better than the minimally regulated capitalism we have in the US.
Haven’t seen any proposal that would reconcile incentives of large number of egoistic actors. This sort of thing simply doesn’t exist.
The economy for the common good is one.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/386481877_Economy_for_the_common_good
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_for_the_Common_Good
Discussion about 16 minutes in. https://sceneonradio.org/s5-e11-change-everything/
Also cooperatives exists, and in many ways are more successful than their traditional capitalistic counterparts, providing a system to help “reconcile egoistic actors” by rewarding cooperation and solidarity rather than competition and utility maximization.
I listened to the discussion so far. The proposed system is still capitalism, but with some tweaks. IMO rather clumsy tweaks since there’s no clear definition what common good even is.
And instead of some point system, you can just collect taxes to finance welfare for citizens, which is exactly how EU economies work. In most cases taxation is progressive so it’s not like rich CEOs aren’t paying exponentially more than avg citizen.
In the US, progressive taxation gets called communism, lol.
But yeah. That’s kinda what I meant with my original comment. The more progressive EU economies are, to my understanding anyway, outcomes from the more reformist socialist traditions - using the existing democratic government to round off the excesses of unregulated capitalism. And I would take that any day of the week.
@BlackLaZoR @vonbaronhans you might be egoistic, but don’t assume people broadly to be so
Point is every society has significant number of egoistic actors. You can’t design a socio-economical system with assumption that everyone will just work for “common good”
@BlackLaZoR the difference is that in a hierarchical system (like capitalism, where capital concetrates), those egoistic people tend to be at the top of society.
Capitalism is a horrible bad solution to dealing with egoistic people