• FiniteBanjo@feddit.online
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    1 day ago

    Capitalism is a system of distribution of goods with a basis of private property and competitive markets. In the past it has been praised for high rate of innovation and low costs of goods compared to older systems such as feudalism and aristocracy where small states subservient to a crown owned and managed industry.

    Examples of Capitalisms:

    Every Nation on Earth except for like 2000 anarchists in Mexico and some various Amish communities who refuse to trade. Literally all of them.

    • stabby_cicada@slrpnk.netOP
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      1 day ago

      Capitalism is a system of distribution of goods with a basis of private property and competitive markets. In the past it has been praised for high rate of innovation and low costs of goods compared to older systems such as feudalism and aristocracy where small states subservient to a crown owned and managed industry.

      Cool. Now tell us why it’s been condemned. You’ve only got half the definition there, and that doesn’t count as an honest explanation.

      (Also: capitalism may work like that in theory, but it’s never been fully implemented in practice. Every so-called “capitalist” economy has the rich putting their thumb on the scale to make markets less competitive in their favor. The “economics 101” definition you give is so simplified that it’s useless for describing any real world economy. But that’s another rant.)

      • FiniteBanjo@feddit.online
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        21 hours ago

        Cool. Now tell us why it’s been condemned.

        How the fuck should I know what you think?

        Also: capitalism may work like that in theory, but it’s never been fully implemented in practice. Every so-called “capitalist” economy has the rich putting their thumb on the scale to make markets less competitive in their favor.

        That’s where democracy and anti-trust laws come into play to tip the scale the other direction. Many European Nations have done a much better job at this than nations with lower democracy index scores such as China, Russia, and the USA.

        • mythWizard@slrpnk.net
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          15 hours ago

          I suppose that’s part of the point. Once the guardrails go up, it’s no longer pure capitalism. If the government doesn’t get involved to mitigate the consolidation of wealth by individuals and monopolies, then capitalism spirals into plutocracy and competition becomes impossible

          • FiniteBanjo@feddit.online
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            15 hours ago

            Then capitalism doesn’t exist and they’re all ranting about imaginary societies they disagree with. Wow. Really puts things into perspective.

      • FiniteBanjo@feddit.online
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        1 day ago

        A person can have a paper saying that they own something and in a dispute courts will consider among other factors.

        • Tiresia@slrpnk.net
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          1 day ago

          So if I don’t own anything and I’m hungry so I eat some food from a garbage bin, and someone says they have a paper that says they own the food in the garbage bin and courts agree with them, then what happens?

          • FiniteBanjo@feddit.online
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            21 hours ago

            then what happens?

            You go to a food pantry or similar distribution network, and you support those facilities and offices politically so that everyone can have their basic needs met.

            Unless you mean for me to tell you the court outcome? Honestly IDGAF how the judge rules, for your own sake you really shouldn’t be eating trash in the first place.

            • Tiresia@slrpnk.net
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              15 hours ago

              Honestly IDGAF how the judge rules

              And thus you didn’t explain anything.

              Also I’ve eaten trash lots of times, it’s a great way to save money. Because corporations are hostile to people, they need far stricter rules of what constitutes “safe food” than people who want to find and make healthy food for their friends. So corporations end up throwing out lots of perfectly healthy food.

          • FishFace@piefed.social
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            1 day ago

            Depends. Do you think OP’s description sounded like commie propaganda, or that it wasn’t accurate?

            • Tiresia@slrpnk.net
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              1 day ago

              I think it’s not an explanation. They use technical terms from the ideology (private property, markets, ownership) and rephrase them into each other, but that doesn’t explain what actually happens.

              This would be the equivalent of me “explaining” a nuclear reactor by saying it extracts potential energy from the strong nuclear force, and then clarifying that by saying the strong nuclear force is mediated by gluons.

              For reference, I would go:

              Capitalism is a social system where everything is ‘owned’ by someone (or something, we’ll get to that later), which means that they are the only ones who are allowed to decide what gets done with it even if they haven’t used it and don’t have plans for using it. There are people that go around beating people up or dragging them into cages for using stuff without permission of the owner, even if they need it. So if you don’t own anything you can’t survive except if an owner keeps making you the owner of what you need to survive, but most owners will only do that if you work hard to make the stuff they own better for them.

              This is why people go around beating people up for using stuff they don’t own; owners give them the stuff they need to survive and some extra so they can live a nicer life than other people who don’t own stuff. I also think they like it because they get to be bullies rather than victims.

              Over time, owners that make people work the hardest get to own more stuff that they can use to work more people harder. They can also fight other owners with violence or by cleverly using ownership of specific things to make the other owner have to give them lots of stuff to keep some stuff. Like if you ‘owned’ the back half of a cave and I owned the cave mouth, then I could make you give me stuff each time you want to get to the back half of the cave to use the stuff you own.

              Another way for owners to get more stuff was to trick other owners into owning stuff they want to get rid of. If an owner says “I own everything that is in this field”, then a different owner can put some rotten garbage on that field and now the owner of the field has to get rid of it.

              Owners didn’t want to spend as much time fighting each other, so they had the people that work for them to beat people up work together as long as the owners agreed to behave in ways the other approved of. Though as I said, the strongest owners are the ones that are cleverest at getting more stuff, so they aren’t kind to each other, so they needed to write down their boundaries at which point they would no longer work together or even have their people try to beat the other owner up. With lots of owners working together this became a whole complicated set of commonly-agreed on boundaries called the legal system. Different alliances of owners had different legal systems, and the stuff each alliance owned was called a ‘country’.

              Now, some of these alliances/countries agreed to write a law that people can say there is a thing that owns things, called a ‘legal entity’. This legal entity has laws of its own, so there can be people who say that the legal entity gave them stuff who don’t get beaten up because other owners agree it’s according to the legal entity’s laws (‘employees’), and other people who say the legal entity gave them stuff who do get beaten up. Interestingly, the only way a legal entity does anything with the stuff it owns is because there are employees that say the laws say other employees should do with that stuff what that employee says. Those employees are called executives.

              One of the most important legal entities is a corporation, which is a legal entity that is owned, which has laws of its own that say to get as much stuff for the owners. Because executives can get beaten up if they take stuff the company owns while the company’s owners say the executive is not following the company’s law of getting as much stuff for the owners, these executives can get very ruthless in what they tell other employees to do to get more stuff.

              The other most important legal entity is the state. Most countries (alliances of owners) have a single state, which usually doesn’t have an owner. In many countries, the executives of the state do most of the saying when {people that {beat people up for {using stuff owners say they don’t own}} can get food without getting beaten up}, and those executives also say when {people who say {they’ve interpreted the laws of the country to come to a decision who to beat up and how much}} get food.

              And yes, the predictable feedback loop does tend to happen here: executives give food to people that interpret the laws in their favor and give food to people to (not) beat people up in their favor. This means the society will act like the executive of the state has increasingly more power, and the executive can also make themself owner of more stuff. This can get so bad that what the executive wants is more of a determining factor than what the laws say.

              Some countries’ laws say that who the executives of the state are is chosen regularly by the people, this is democracy. In others the exective of the state has laws that agree that the executive should be all-powerful, this is dictatorship. If the state is owned by a single person it is a monarchy, though a state can be “owned” in a more ceremonial sense when the laws of the state says the “owner” doesn’t get to make important decisions while the executives make the real decisions. A state with a single person as a ceremonial owner is called a “constitutional monarchy”. If the state is owned in such a ceremonial sense by the entire population while the executive is all-powerful, this is called “dictatorship of the proletariat”.

              All of these are states, and so they are all societies where everything is owned by someone or something, where someone will get beaten up for using something they need that nobody else was using. Capitalism is often defined more narrowly - around legal entities or corporations or around ownership by non-state entities or around there being a large diverse set of owners that follow the rules of the country - but the core of the rot lies there.

              • FishFace@piefed.social
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                18 hours ago

                I’m not going to read the entirety of this extremely long explanation, because I don’t need to read an extremely long criticism of capitalism pretending to be an explanation. I’ve read many criticisms of capitalism (and agree with at least some of them).

                I got as far as your first two paragraphs before I had a serious issue with it as an explanation. We can discuss that if you really want, but I think your issue is not a valid one. Recalling OP’s explanation:

                Capitalism is a system of distribution of goods with a basis of private property and competitive markets. In the past it has been praised for high rate of innovation and low costs of goods compared to older systems such as feudalism and aristocracy where small states subservient to a crown owned and managed industry.

                So the terms they used are:

                • system of distribution of goods
                • private property
                • competitive markets

                So, it is explaining capitalism in terms of those, which are simpler and more likely for anyone reading to understand. I would say in particular that everyone reading should understand the first term, that “private property” is understood by almost everybody, and that “competitive markets” is the least likely to be understood, but can be explained further. None of them is comparable to “gluons”.

                No matter how many explanations of capitalism there are that make it sound really bad, it only takes one that doesn’t sound too bad to contradict the main post. So you need to focus on why that one is inadequate, rather than making your own explanation.

                • Tiresia@slrpnk.net
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                  15 hours ago

                  “Other people know what this means” is not an explanation either. It has been used throughout philosophical and scientific history to fake-explain lots of stuff, from the Platonic Ideal definition of a human to ethnonationalism, but you don’t get any knowledge from that either. It relies on people’s tendency to feel too dumb to vocalize uncertainty about “obvious” unspoken assumptions.

                  So please, can you explain “private property”? Without simply rephrasing it (“ownership”, “possession”, etc.) or referring to an authority (“the courts will mediate and the outcome of that mediation depends”, or other ways to dodge explaining something? I have given an example of how to do it.

      • BlackLaZoR@lemmy.world
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        20 hours ago

        Even if I’d known nothing, it would be still better than knowing completely fake, fabricated version of history.

        • backalleycoyote@lemmy.today
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          15 hours ago

          There’s no pure, unfiltered, raw history. We can research it from multiple angles, recognize our sources had their biases just as we have ours, and come to an academic consensus about probabilistic reconstruction. Even then, you are free to create your own belief about the various interpretations of history and pick a narrative that fits your world view. That’s why some folks believe ancient aliens built the pyramids and others believe it was the Hebrew slaves, no matter how much evidence points to the contrary. Or you can choose ignorance. Is it as blissful as they say it is?

    • SethW@lemmy.world
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      1 day ago

      Even if we acknowledge capitalism is responsible for the rising tide of the last 100+ years (and even that is highly situational), it’s obviously not working anymore and without a way to externalize the costs of capitalism to people and places that “dont matter” those tools meant to externalize damage are now pointed inwards and the rewards fail to trickle down. now we’re all losing more than we put in, with that surplus value going only to the owners.

        • aketawi@quokk.au
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          23 hours ago

          pretty funny how nearly all pro-capitalist notion comes down to “I’m privileged enough to be happy with the status quo”

          • BlackLaZoR@lemmy.world
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            22 hours ago

            Considering communism was voted out in fair elections here and noone wants it back, your argument is invalid.

                • Riverside@reddthat.com
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                  19 hours ago

                  So you’re Polish? Before you ask how I know: Poland is the only big economy which has improved somewhat in the 35 years following the dissolution of socialism.

            • Juice@midwest.social
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              19 hours ago

              Fascism has been voted in unfair elections, and now refuses to be voted out, turns out “fair” and “elections” are a political abstraction that hides the fundamental class antagonisms, god somebody should look into this

              • BlackLaZoR@lemmy.world
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                18 hours ago

                Fascism has been voted in unfair elections

                Wait wait wait. When Trump lost against Biden he claimed unfair elections. Once Trump won against Kamala Harris you claim unfair elections? That’s actually hilarious.

                • Juice@midwest.social
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                  12 hours ago

                  Lol. This is what I meant by “political abstractions.” I’m talking about actual things in the world, you’re talking about these ideas like a middle schooler, and so the only position you can even imagine, is the opposite of your baby ideas. But the opposite of abstract and idealist, is practical and specific. You have ideas, and I have experience.

                  I’m not talking about Trump and Harris. Also, did you just accuse the USA president of being a fascist? I’m pretty sure people are being put in camps for that, better be careful with that incendiary rhetoric, lol.

                  Both parties are corrupt and complicit.

                  1. First past the post is totally rigged for the two party system, both parties captured by elites and don’t represent regular people

                  2. USA electoral system makes sure many voters cant vote. one of the two major political parties (Republicans) actively campaign on making it harder for people to vote.

                  3. Our culture, which is controlled by our media, is objectively depoliticizing unless you want to identify with one of two political perspectives that oppose each other but don’t represent people or even reality most of the time.

                  4. States, and all elections are handled on the state level, are deeply gerrymandered. In my state, on 2 separate occasions, citizens voted for redistricting in our state and ratified it into our constitution. Both times, the constitutional mandate was ignored. The third time citizens tried to pass another constitutional amendment to un fuck our districts, the Republican controlled board of elections changed the wording of the actual amendment as it would appear on peoples voting forms and made it appear like voting for redistricting was actually making elections less democratic.

                  5. In 2016 and 2020, a popular left candidate was dequalified from running by the Democrats, through maneuvering and electoral manipulation. The problem isn’t just with Republicans.

                  Other structures of American politics are undemocratic and corrupt, such as the Senate, lobbyism, the two party system, the incredible influence foreign governments have on our policy, not to mention corporations, justice system illegally corrupted by business at the highest levels, plans like project 2025 being carried out despite them being extremely unpopular and obviously made to hurt people. On and on.

                  You’re not serious.

            • vonbaronhans@midwest.social
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              22 hours ago

              Is the communism that you voted out the Marxist-Leninist, “people’s revolution turned authoritarian state” kind? I’d get rid of that shit, too.

              There are lots of other stands of anti-capitalism (eg, democratic socialism, anarchism) that are probably worth exploring. Even if we stick with capitalism but soften it with socialist policies, that’s still way better than the minimally regulated capitalism we have in the US.

  • jimmy90@lemmy.world
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    1 day ago

    and then every application of his philosophy turned to rancid shit

    and they saw it was good in their intellectual diversity