Every government and even every culture practices some degree of control over how we speak and how we exist. Language itself has an impact on this. Despite this fact, it’s possible to recognize proletarian control vs capitalist control.
“Everyone does it!” is literally a logical fallacy.
It’s not even just “some”, you’re minimizing the extent of control here. You cannot have a state held accountable if it systematically suppresses criticism against it.
I’m recognizing the class nature of the state and society. I’m not trying to morally justify anything, but instead point out why it exists, both necessarily and temporarily.
Class society can only be ended through socialism, which means we need the state and all that comes with it until we achieve communism. Even in communism, hierarchy will still exist, as administration plays a necessary role in production and distribution.
You absolutely can be classless while still having hierarchy. A manager is not a different class from those under them unless they have a difference in ownership of the means of production and distribution. Secondly, I am not conflating organization and structure with hierarchy, you need all 3. A nuclear power plant without hierarchy is a disaster waiting to happen. Without hierarchy, you cannot coordinate the global logistics to create a smartphone. Horizontalism has regional limitations that run counter to communism and humanity’s march towards collectivization.
What stops groups from sending delegates to councils of other groups’ delegates? Forming councils and representative bodies is possible without hierarchy. These models can be used for federation and coordination.
In certain contexts such as time-critical crises, you may choose to follow orders from one person, such as the lead firefighter. Any power over others is limited to people giving over that power.
Horizontal infrastructure under anarchism can scale by building interconnected networks of smaller communities kept to a size that operate on direct consensus and human trust by federating those nodes.
We already maintain digital ecosystems in this way, with Linux, Git and the Fediverse being built and maintained by massive amounts of people without vertical command. Coordination with delegates sent to a council allow local syndicates to coordinate on large projects.
While scale requires structure, communication and logistics, it does not require the executive domination and subjugation that is conflated with structure.
At scale, mass production does require administration and coordination from the top-down. This administration can be more democratically accountable than modern capitalism, but nevertheless having managers in most cases will either make production more efficient, meaning fewer working hours for all, or will be absolutely critical in order for production to even be possible.
Some examples include nuclear power, PCB fabrication, the production of medicine, etc. Simply having more nodesdoesn’t solve the problem of horizontally managing a clean room, for example. Administration is not the problem, class is. I have no problems with being managed as a worker, I take issue with my labor being exploited and used for profit, rather than to make a better society for everyone.
I used to be an anarchist, so I’m familiar with the arguments, it’s just that at scale communism makes far more sense and socialism has actually been established for long periods of time. I work with anarchist comrades and support them, but I can’t agree with them when it comes to which direction society will go in.
Classes can be destroyed and we can build class-less societies without hierarchy in lieu of anarchism.
The whole point of socialism is transitioning to that stage. To get there you need to supress the reactionary classes (bourgeoisie) just like how for them to stay in power they suppress the proletariat. Then they can with time be expropriated and proletarianised until their is only one class the proletariat and class antagonisms cease to be. Pressing the magic communism worldwide class destruction 9000 button isn’t an option no matter how much you wish for it.
Every government and even every culture practices some degree of control over how we speak and how we exist. Language itself has an impact on this. Despite this fact, it’s possible to recognize proletarian control vs capitalist control.
“Everyone does it!” is literally a logical fallacy.
It’s not even just “some”, you’re minimizing the extent of control here. You cannot have a state held accountable if it systematically suppresses criticism against it.
No it’s an accurate representation of class society and what it necessitates
I’m recognizing the class nature of the state and society. I’m not trying to morally justify anything, but instead point out why it exists, both necessarily and temporarily.
It does come off as you defending it when you don’t consider it bad or criticize the idea, and instead assert for it.
We can do better. Just because everyone does it, doesn’t mean we can’t do better.
Classes can be destroyed and we can build class-less societies without hierarchy in lieu of anarchism.
Class society can only be ended through socialism, which means we need the state and all that comes with it until we achieve communism. Even in communism, hierarchy will still exist, as administration plays a necessary role in production and distribution.
You can’t be class-less and hierarchial at the same time, so I’m not sure how you concluded that class society can only be ended by socialism.
Furthermore, you are conflating organization and structure with hierarchy. You do not need hierarchy for administration.
You absolutely can be classless while still having hierarchy. A manager is not a different class from those under them unless they have a difference in ownership of the means of production and distribution. Secondly, I am not conflating organization and structure with hierarchy, you need all 3. A nuclear power plant without hierarchy is a disaster waiting to happen. Without hierarchy, you cannot coordinate the global logistics to create a smartphone. Horizontalism has regional limitations that run counter to communism and humanity’s march towards collectivization.
On hierarchy:
What stops groups from sending delegates to councils of other groups’ delegates? Forming councils and representative bodies is possible without hierarchy. These models can be used for federation and coordination.
In certain contexts such as time-critical crises, you may choose to follow orders from one person, such as the lead firefighter. Any power over others is limited to people giving over that power.
Horizontal infrastructure under anarchism can scale by building interconnected networks of smaller communities kept to a size that operate on direct consensus and human trust by federating those nodes.
We already maintain digital ecosystems in this way, with Linux, Git and the Fediverse being built and maintained by massive amounts of people without vertical command. Coordination with delegates sent to a council allow local syndicates to coordinate on large projects.
While scale requires structure, communication and logistics, it does not require the executive domination and subjugation that is conflated with structure.
At scale, mass production does require administration and coordination from the top-down. This administration can be more democratically accountable than modern capitalism, but nevertheless having managers in most cases will either make production more efficient, meaning fewer working hours for all, or will be absolutely critical in order for production to even be possible.
Some examples include nuclear power, PCB fabrication, the production of medicine, etc. Simply having more nodesdoesn’t solve the problem of horizontally managing a clean room, for example. Administration is not the problem, class is. I have no problems with being managed as a worker, I take issue with my labor being exploited and used for profit, rather than to make a better society for everyone.
I used to be an anarchist, so I’m familiar with the arguments, it’s just that at scale communism makes far more sense and socialism has actually been established for long periods of time. I work with anarchist comrades and support them, but I can’t agree with them when it comes to which direction society will go in.
The whole point of socialism is transitioning to that stage. To get there you need to supress the reactionary classes (bourgeoisie) just like how for them to stay in power they suppress the proletariat. Then they can with time be expropriated and proletarianised until their is only one class the proletariat and class antagonisms cease to be. Pressing the magic communism worldwide class destruction 9000 button isn’t an option no matter how much you wish for it.