The proletariat is the majority in most if not all societies, arguing the dictatorship of the proletariat is undemocratic merely because the word “dictatorship” doesn’t make sense. Democracy is [ideally, not what it is in practice] is a dictatorship of the majority, and the proletariat are the majority, surely you see how saying democracy is undemocratic makes no sense.
States are instruments of oppression weilded by classes, they are all “dictatorships” in the sense that a class oppresses the other; the question in state is, is it the capitalists oppressing the working class, or the other way around
Except in practice it’s not proletarians doing these things, it’s bureaucrats who end up forming their own class and class interests in the name of the proletariat. The average proletariat isn’t actually the one who makes these rules or checks or applies censorships. See China, USSR, Cuba.
There shouldn’t be classes to begin with. Eliminating hierarchies in lieu of anarchism deals with the issue without it being “another dictatorship”
forming their own class and class interests in the name of the proletariat.
That’s not how class works, it’s not like starting a new club. Class is defined by your relationship to production, not some nebulous title like “beauraucrats”
There shouldn’t be classes to begin with.
Genuinely, what is your suggested approach to rectifying this and what real world data is it based on? How do you expect to abolish class without a clear understanding of what creates it? How would a scientist expect to cure a disease without understanding what it is?
That’s the socialist definition of class, that is not how I understand class.
I can decide to understand gravity as a color if I want to, but it doesn’t make me right.
Calling bureaucracy “nebulous” doesn’t invalidate any of the reasoning I provided
I’m calling the term you’re using (beauraucrats) nebulous, because it is, because you haven’t defined it. You haven’t provided any “reasoning”, you’ve just said “I think this happens” with nothing at all to back it up.
Suggested approach: anarchism.
That’s cool, but some of us feel like living in a society that doesn’t get rolled over by a capitalist military whenever they feel like it. Some of us enjoy functional supply chains, too.
I didn’t disregard the importance of understanding class, merely that I disagreed with the reductive socialist definition of class.
Yeah I’m not saying you don’t think it’s important, I’m just saying you don’t understand it. Please tell me what you think is reductive about the definition of class used by the people who have radically transformed multiple feudal societies into world powers, because your own track record does not make a compelling case for abandoning it.
The proletariat is the majority in most if not all societies, arguing the dictatorship of the proletariat is undemocratic merely because the word “dictatorship” doesn’t make sense. Democracy is [ideally, not what it is in practice] is a dictatorship of the majority, and the proletariat are the majority, surely you see how saying democracy is undemocratic makes no sense.
States are instruments of oppression weilded by classes, they are all “dictatorships” in the sense that a class oppresses the other; the question in state is, is it the capitalists oppressing the working class, or the other way around
Except in practice it’s not proletarians doing these things, it’s bureaucrats who end up forming their own class and class interests in the name of the proletariat. The average proletariat isn’t actually the one who makes these rules or checks or applies censorships. See China, USSR, Cuba.
There shouldn’t be classes to begin with. Eliminating hierarchies in lieu of anarchism deals with the issue without it being “another dictatorship”
That’s not how class works, it’s not like starting a new club. Class is defined by your relationship to production, not some nebulous title like “beauraucrats”
Genuinely, what is your suggested approach to rectifying this and what real world data is it based on? How do you expect to abolish class without a clear understanding of what creates it? How would a scientist expect to cure a disease without understanding what it is?
That’s the socialist definition of class, that is not how I understand class.
I didn’t say it’s like “starting a new club”.
Calling bureaucracy “nebulous” doesn’t invalidate any of the reasoning I provided.
Suggested approach: anarchism.
I didn’t disregard the importance of understanding class, merely that I disagreed with the reductive socialist definition of class.
I can decide to understand gravity as a color if I want to, but it doesn’t make me right.
I’m calling the term you’re using (beauraucrats) nebulous, because it is, because you haven’t defined it. You haven’t provided any “reasoning”, you’ve just said “I think this happens” with nothing at all to back it up.
That’s cool, but some of us feel like living in a society that doesn’t get rolled over by a capitalist military whenever they feel like it. Some of us enjoy functional supply chains, too.
Yeah I’m not saying you don’t think it’s important, I’m just saying you don’t understand it. Please tell me what you think is reductive about the definition of class used by the people who have radically transformed multiple feudal societies into world powers, because your own track record does not make a compelling case for abandoning it.