as an immediate and visceral connection to historical antisemitism
Not really. The Nazis had symbols for Jews, this symbol was used for various non-Jewish prisoners as well. And it was used for prisoners, not targets.
And then you just repeated your same argument that
Hamas is antisemitic and they use the symbol so it’s antisemitic.
And then you add a new argument: that tankies use the symbol and they are pro-ethnic cleansing which is the same as being antisemitic (it isn’t) so the symbol is antisemitic
But there’s also plenty of people who aren’t antisemitic who use the symbol.
Sorry it just doesn’t convince me. The symbol may be problematic since it’s often used to designate targets, but this connection to the holocaust is just not accurate.
Anyway I don’t rlly care that much, I don’t use the symbol nor do I like it, I just got triggered by blatant misinformation. Sorry for getting all heated.
Not really. The Nazis had symbols for Jews, this symbol was used for various non-Jewish prisoners as well. And it was used for prisoners, not targets.
And?
And then you just repeated your same argument that Hamas is antisemitic and they use the symbol so it’s antisemitic.
“The Holocaust deniers use a symbol from the Holocaust to mark people they characterize as Jews for death”
If it were any other antisemitic group, would you be bending backwards to accommodate their introduction of such a symbol?
And then you add a new argument: that tankies use the symbol and they are pro-ethnic cleansing which is the same as being antisemitic (it isn’t) so the symbol is antisemitic
“It’s not antisemitic to want to ethnically cleanse Jews from a region!”
Holy fucking shit, are you being serious?
But there’s also plenty of people who aren’t antisemitic who use the symbol.
Which has all the validity of anti-capitalists deciding to use the swastika in honor of the Strasserists, whilst insisting that they aren’t onboard with the whole antisemitism thing, just the anti-capitalism.
Sorry it just doesn’t convince me. The symbol may be problematic since it’s often used to designate targets, but this connection to the holocaust is just not accurate.
I note again
“The Holocaust deniers use a symbol from the Holocaust to mark people they characterize as Jews for death”
Christ, it’s like talking to a conservative claiming that MAGA merch being sold for $14.88 means nothing.
Pug can you chill out and try to understand me here? You don’t have to agree but no need to argue in bad faith.
I’m not defending Hamas introducing the symbol. I’m defending the many protestors using this symbol as a symbol of resistance, not for their use of the symbol, but against the accusation of antisemitism.
Largely what I see is that tankies want to ethnically cleanse Israelis from the area, not Jews. Your experience may differ, let me know. That doesn’t make it okay, but the difference is rather important when discussing antisemitism. Surely you wouldn’t equate Israelis with Jews either.
Is it too much to ask for you to see some nuance in this? Wikipedia directly refutes the claims that you and the other person are making, and has a reference. If you provide some evidence to the contrary I’m happy to change my mind.
Pug can you chill out and try to understand me here? You don’t have to agree but no need to argue in bad faith.
Being irritable is not ‘arguing in bad faith’, and I’d thank you not to play fucking tone police when discussing defending ethnic fucking cleansing and antisemitism.
I’m not defending Hamas introducing the symbol. I’m defending the many protestors using this symbol as a symbol of resistance, not for their use of the symbol, but against the accusation of antisemitism.
Again, how does that differ from the Strasserist “anti-capitalism” comparison I made? “Yes, I know these people introduced this symbol for most-likely horrific reasons that I (supposedly) don’t agree with, but I’m going to use it and I expect you to regard it as legitimate and wholesome”
Largely what I see is that tankies want to ethnically cleanse Israelis from the area, not Jews. Your experience may differ, let me know. That doesn’t make it okay, but the difference is rather important when discussing antisemitism. Surely you wouldn’t equate Israelis with Jews either.
Jesus fucking Christ, are you being serious here?
Campist fuckwits aren’t calling for Arab citizens of Israel to be ethnically cleansed; and even if they were, that holds about as much fucking water as the Trump administration crying “It’s not a Muslim ban, it’s just a ban on countries that are majority Muslim 😭” Most Israelis are Jews because Israel’s primary form of growth was through the invitation of Jewish immigrants. If I said “I’m not anti-Muslim, I just want all of those filthy Bosniaks out of my good Yugoslavia”, would that pass muster with you? Would you say, “Oh, you’re just advocating ethnic cleansing of an unrelated group for unrelated reason, definitely nothing to do with anti-Muslim sentiment! 😊”?
It’s fucking insane how much you bend over for shit that, rightfully, would not fucking fly in any other context. Israel is a horrific ethnonationalist state; that doesn’t mean you have to play fucking defense for ethnic cleansing because they’re fucking bad camp.
Is it too much to ask for you to see some nuance in this? Wikipedia directly refutes the claims that you and the other person are making, and has a reference. If you provide some evidence to the contrary I’m happy to change my mind.
The only ‘refutation’ that the Wiki article provides is that the red triangle, used horizontallyon the flag as a representation of Arab unity dates back to the early 20th century.
For some reason, a group of Holocaust deniers introducing the use of an inverted red triangle as an independent element to markJewish identified targets (not Arabs) seems a bit distinct from that.
I’m not defending ethnic cleansing. That’s what I mean with arguing in bad faith, I’m not policing your tone.
I’ll say your point abt ethnic cleansing of Israelis actually being thinly veiled antisemitism makes sense I was wrong about that.
All I’m saying is, the modern use of the symbol is not a reference to the symbol used in Nazi concentration camps. Something that is confirmed both by my real life discussions and online research. I’m honestly open to change my mind if you provide a decent source or something. The Wikipedia article I linked only has one source refuting it and maybe my bubble is misinformed.
I’m not defending Israel nor Hamas nor the tankies nor the symbol here I just care way too much about truth
I’m not defending ethnic cleansing. That’s what I mean with arguing in bad faith, I’m not policing your tone.
I’ll say your point abt ethnic cleansing of Israelis actually being thinly veiled antisemitism makes sense I was wrong about that.
Do you see how “No, it’s not actual antisemitism” comes off as playing apologist for ethnic cleansing advocacy?
It’s not arguing in bad faith to point out the necessary implications of an argument.
All I’m saying is, the modern use of the symbol is not a reference to the symbol used in Nazi concentration camps. Something that is confirmed both by my real life discussions and online research. I’m honestly open to change my mind if you provide a decent source or something. The Wikipedia article I linked only has one source refuting it and maybe my bubble is misinformed.
If you follow the source in the Wikipedia article, this is what it has to say:
The red triangle appears in the Palestinian flag, where it represents the role the Hashemite dynasty played in the Arab Revolt against the Ottoman Empire during the First World War, Desai said.
“The colour red symbolizes the blood of those who sacrificed in battle for the Arab cause and the Palestinian cause. Red is also one of the Pan-Arab colours, along with black, white and green, which together represent Arab unity and independence.”
(note, again, this is in the context of being part of the flag, of being a symbol of Arabs rather than enemy targets, and not an inverted triangle)
But for some, the red triangle is reminiscent of the classification used in the Holocaust to identify political prisoners in Nazi camps, Musu said.
As the Auschwitz-Birkenau memorial and museum explains, the camps identified prisoners using coloured triangles, including red for political prisoners and pink for gay prisoners.
Several posts online have noted the similarity, including an Instagram Reel by Jewish actor Amanda Markowitz, who wrote, “Either they truly don’t know or they do know and are using Holocaust inversion … and both of these options are dangerous.”
Not really. The Nazis had symbols for Jews, this symbol was used for various non-Jewish prisoners as well. And it was used for prisoners, not targets.
And then you just repeated your same argument that Hamas is antisemitic and they use the symbol so it’s antisemitic.
And then you add a new argument: that tankies use the symbol and they are pro-ethnic cleansing which is the same as being antisemitic (it isn’t) so the symbol is antisemitic
But there’s also plenty of people who aren’t antisemitic who use the symbol.
Sorry it just doesn’t convince me. The symbol may be problematic since it’s often used to designate targets, but this connection to the holocaust is just not accurate.
Anyway I don’t rlly care that much, I don’t use the symbol nor do I like it, I just got triggered by blatant misinformation. Sorry for getting all heated.
And?
“The Holocaust deniers use a symbol from the Holocaust to mark people they characterize as Jews for death”
If it were any other antisemitic group, would you be bending backwards to accommodate their introduction of such a symbol?
“It’s not antisemitic to want to ethnically cleanse Jews from a region!”
Holy fucking shit, are you being serious?
Which has all the validity of anti-capitalists deciding to use the swastika in honor of the Strasserists, whilst insisting that they aren’t onboard with the whole antisemitism thing, just the anti-capitalism.
I note again
“The Holocaust deniers use a symbol from the Holocaust to mark people they characterize as Jews for death”
Christ, it’s like talking to a conservative claiming that MAGA merch being sold for $14.88 means nothing.
Pug can you chill out and try to understand me here? You don’t have to agree but no need to argue in bad faith.
I’m not defending Hamas introducing the symbol. I’m defending the many protestors using this symbol as a symbol of resistance, not for their use of the symbol, but against the accusation of antisemitism.
Largely what I see is that tankies want to ethnically cleanse Israelis from the area, not Jews. Your experience may differ, let me know. That doesn’t make it okay, but the difference is rather important when discussing antisemitism. Surely you wouldn’t equate Israelis with Jews either.
Is it too much to ask for you to see some nuance in this? Wikipedia directly refutes the claims that you and the other person are making, and has a reference. If you provide some evidence to the contrary I’m happy to change my mind.
Being irritable is not ‘arguing in bad faith’, and I’d thank you not to play fucking tone police when discussing defending ethnic fucking cleansing and antisemitism.
Again, how does that differ from the Strasserist “anti-capitalism” comparison I made? “Yes, I know these people introduced this symbol for most-likely horrific reasons that I (supposedly) don’t agree with, but I’m going to use it and I expect you to regard it as legitimate and wholesome”
Jesus fucking Christ, are you being serious here?
Campist fuckwits aren’t calling for Arab citizens of Israel to be ethnically cleansed; and even if they were, that holds about as much fucking water as the Trump administration crying “It’s not a Muslim ban, it’s just a ban on countries that are majority Muslim 😭” Most Israelis are Jews because Israel’s primary form of growth was through the invitation of Jewish immigrants. If I said “I’m not anti-Muslim, I just want all of those filthy Bosniaks out of my good Yugoslavia”, would that pass muster with you? Would you say, “Oh, you’re just advocating ethnic cleansing of an unrelated group for unrelated reason, definitely nothing to do with anti-Muslim sentiment! 😊”?
It’s fucking insane how much you bend over for shit that, rightfully, would not fucking fly in any other context. Israel is a horrific ethnonationalist state; that doesn’t mean you have to play fucking defense for ethnic cleansing because they’re fucking bad camp.
The only ‘refutation’ that the Wiki article provides is that the red triangle, used horizontally on the flag as a representation of Arab unity dates back to the early 20th century.
For some reason, a group of Holocaust deniers introducing the use of an inverted red triangle as an independent element to mark Jewish identified targets (not Arabs) seems a bit distinct from that.
I’m not defending ethnic cleansing. That’s what I mean with arguing in bad faith, I’m not policing your tone.
I’ll say your point abt ethnic cleansing of Israelis actually being thinly veiled antisemitism makes sense I was wrong about that.
All I’m saying is, the modern use of the symbol is not a reference to the symbol used in Nazi concentration camps. Something that is confirmed both by my real life discussions and online research. I’m honestly open to change my mind if you provide a decent source or something. The Wikipedia article I linked only has one source refuting it and maybe my bubble is misinformed.
I’m not defending Israel nor Hamas nor the tankies nor the symbol here I just care way too much about truth
Do you see how “No, it’s not actual antisemitism” comes off as playing apologist for ethnic cleansing advocacy?
It’s not arguing in bad faith to point out the necessary implications of an argument.
If you follow the source in the Wikipedia article, this is what it has to say:
(note, again, this is in the context of being part of the flag, of being a symbol of Arabs rather than enemy targets, and not an inverted triangle)
… not much of a refutation.